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Should 'she' Be Allowed To Enter?
Boy living as a girl is finalist in beauty competition
Can any male just put on a dress, call themselves a female and instantly get female rights?
Which public toilets/changing rooms would 'she' use? Surely not the male ones???
...and surely there are 'beauty' competitions for transgenders 'she' could enter
http://
Can any male just put on a dress, call themselves a female and instantly get female rights?
Which public toilets/changing rooms would 'she' use? Surely not the male ones???
...and surely there are 'beauty' competitions for transgenders 'she' could enter
http://
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Late entrant for the Miss Coventry beauty comp
http://
http://
One definition of transgender (there are many) is this..."People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."
I've heard male transgenders describe themselves as being a woman trapped in a mans body. So, though Joe may see a 'boy' wearing girls clothes,Jordan sees/feels herself as a woman with unwanted male attributes.
I really don't find that too difficult to get my head around,but it seems many do.
I've heard male transgenders describe themselves as being a woman trapped in a mans body. So, though Joe may see a 'boy' wearing girls clothes,Jordan sees/feels herself as a woman with unwanted male attributes.
I really don't find that too difficult to get my head around,but it seems many do.
The body of a boy, but the mind it seems of a woman. If you put on a uniform and called yourself a policeman, you would be wrong because, of course, there is far more to being a policeman than the uniform. There are skills and qualifications and an official process to go to beforehand. Indeed, there is also more to being a woman than wearing clothes. You also have to think of yourself as a woman, and what is more you have to do so just about all the time, every waking moment. To maintain something for that long without believing it to be true, without knowing it to be true, is nigh on impossible and certainly very damaging. We've seen in the past that people who are forced to be what they are not, it never works out well.
The problem in this case is that you're unable to separate "social" gender, which is a set of behaviours and clothing and appearance and other, somewhat intangible things, from the biological side. Is there really a link between this? Why should there be? Indeed, given the well-established existence of the "intersex" at a genetic level (XXY, XYY, XXX and so on), it should be clear that there is more to biological gender than man and woman. For that matter, if, as pixie did earlier, you treat intersex as a third gender, or at least as distinct in some way, then what choice have intersex people? They can identify as either a man or a woman and yet, presumably, this would be wrong , because they are being something they are "not".
On the other hand, societies exist in which a third gender is well-established. From a traditional Western point of view this third gender is probably closest to men behaving something like women, but to label them as such would be insulting and inaccurate -- because in their society, they are neither and the roles associated with each gender allow for this third path.
And, again, the way in which men and women behave has changed over time even in this world. Until the early 20th Century, young boys would wear dresses until maybe they were as old as eight. Back then, clearly, the dresses they were wearing were not seen as gender-specific. Now it seems that has changed -- as we have seen on AB recently, the thought of a young boy in a tutu is controversial.
But the overall picture is that social gender is something that society has imprinted on top of biological gender. And then, in the odd cases, society has got it wrong with some individuals. You are born, the midwife shouts "it's a boy/ girl", and you are brought up usually according to that gender. In most cases this seems not to matter much. Biological girls are generally comfortable behaving that way, biological boys likewise.
But in some cases it doesn't work out that way, and for various reasons it seems that the imposed social gender matches up with the person's physical gender, but not their own image of themselves. When that happens -- and it does happen -- we should respect that, and accept it, and let them life their lives as they so wish.
The problem in this case is that you're unable to separate "social" gender, which is a set of behaviours and clothing and appearance and other, somewhat intangible things, from the biological side. Is there really a link between this? Why should there be? Indeed, given the well-established existence of the "intersex" at a genetic level (XXY, XYY, XXX and so on), it should be clear that there is more to biological gender than man and woman. For that matter, if, as pixie did earlier, you treat intersex as a third gender, or at least as distinct in some way, then what choice have intersex people? They can identify as either a man or a woman and yet, presumably, this would be wrong , because they are being something they are "not".
On the other hand, societies exist in which a third gender is well-established. From a traditional Western point of view this third gender is probably closest to men behaving something like women, but to label them as such would be insulting and inaccurate -- because in their society, they are neither and the roles associated with each gender allow for this third path.
And, again, the way in which men and women behave has changed over time even in this world. Until the early 20th Century, young boys would wear dresses until maybe they were as old as eight. Back then, clearly, the dresses they were wearing were not seen as gender-specific. Now it seems that has changed -- as we have seen on AB recently, the thought of a young boy in a tutu is controversial.
But the overall picture is that social gender is something that society has imprinted on top of biological gender. And then, in the odd cases, society has got it wrong with some individuals. You are born, the midwife shouts "it's a boy/ girl", and you are brought up usually according to that gender. In most cases this seems not to matter much. Biological girls are generally comfortable behaving that way, biological boys likewise.
But in some cases it doesn't work out that way, and for various reasons it seems that the imposed social gender matches up with the person's physical gender, but not their own image of themselves. When that happens -- and it does happen -- we should respect that, and accept it, and let them life their lives as they so wish.
Pasta, it's hard to understand, because Jordan is a male and therefore has absolutely no way of knowing whether he thinks and feels like a woman does. How can he tell?
It's more likely that it's a society thing that he feels misplaced somehow and that is what he is ascribing it to, but he's not in a,position to do that. It isn't about genitals only, it's genes, brain wiring and partly hormones. Nothing will ever change a male into a female - you would have to change the DNA of every cell in the body.
It's more likely that it's a society thing that he feels misplaced somehow and that is what he is ascribing it to, but he's not in a,position to do that. It isn't about genitals only, it's genes, brain wiring and partly hormones. Nothing will ever change a male into a female - you would have to change the DNA of every cell in the body.
The change will never be perfect, no. Still, if someone wants to try, why not let them get on with it? After all, it's such a large and complex set of procedures (for example, some amount of facial reshaping) that few people go through it without a serious motivation to do so.
Usually speaking, when it comes to gender reassignment surgery, firstly it's about feeling misplaced, and then one wants their body to match their self-image. Some people are happy living without major surgery. Others are not. In the end, it's their choice, and no-one else's to criticise. After all, the lack of understanding of what it must be like goes both ways. No-one who is not transgender can truly understand what it must be like.
Usually speaking, when it comes to gender reassignment surgery, firstly it's about feeling misplaced, and then one wants their body to match their self-image. Some people are happy living without major surgery. Others are not. In the end, it's their choice, and no-one else's to criticise. After all, the lack of understanding of what it must be like goes both ways. No-one who is not transgender can truly understand what it must be like.
joeluke seems to be taking quits a bearing on this thread and I have to say that i have a certain amount of sympathy for his views.
In my opinion, we are getting confused by our perceived complexity of the problem. if i may be allowed to simplify it........for my own understanding also.
We have 3 broad types of individuals:
1) XX karyotype.........female
2) XY karyotype.......male
3) XX and a rogue gene.......Trisomy of X.......mainly female.
Now I cannot see any reason why XX should dress and act as a female.....
I cannot see why XY should act and dress as a male.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the triple X who may look physically quite normal OR obviously physically abnormal and i understand how they might have difficulty in registering a preference....male or femail.
The latter have good reason to be unclear........their genetic makeup is obscure and confusing.
XX and XY have no excuse to doubt their sexual preference as they, if been genotyped, can produce the evidence............
Now we have the XY and the XX who "feel" that they are different from what their genetic makeup suggests.....no evidence......just a feeling and to me that doesn't hold water.
As to loving my children, I would love them if they were Trisomy of X which was causing emotional and identifiable sexual problems, however, the son that "felt" she was a girl, or the girl that "felt" she was a boy, would personally, be difficult to handle.
I probably would feel the same towards that problem as joeluke.
In my opinion, we are getting confused by our perceived complexity of the problem. if i may be allowed to simplify it........for my own understanding also.
We have 3 broad types of individuals:
1) XX karyotype.........female
2) XY karyotype.......male
3) XX and a rogue gene.......Trisomy of X.......mainly female.
Now I cannot see any reason why XX should dress and act as a female.....
I cannot see why XY should act and dress as a male.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the triple X who may look physically quite normal OR obviously physically abnormal and i understand how they might have difficulty in registering a preference....male or femail.
The latter have good reason to be unclear........their genetic makeup is obscure and confusing.
XX and XY have no excuse to doubt their sexual preference as they, if been genotyped, can produce the evidence............
Now we have the XY and the XX who "feel" that they are different from what their genetic makeup suggests.....no evidence......just a feeling and to me that doesn't hold water.
As to loving my children, I would love them if they were Trisomy of X which was causing emotional and identifiable sexual problems, however, the son that "felt" she was a girl, or the girl that "felt" she was a boy, would personally, be difficult to handle.
I probably would feel the same towards that problem as joeluke.
\\\Now I cannot see any reason why XX should dress and act as a female.....
I cannot see why XY should act and dress as a male.\\\
Sorry...should have read:
Now i cannot see any reason why XX should not dress and act as a female...
I cannot see why XY should not dress and act as a male.
That should make it clearer.
I cannot see why XY should act and dress as a male.\\\
Sorry...should have read:
Now i cannot see any reason why XX should not dress and act as a female...
I cannot see why XY should not dress and act as a male.
That should make it clearer.
-- answer removed --
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