After Reading This Do Those Who Support Our Politicians Decision To Go To War, Still Think It Was The Only Thing To Do?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2772161/PETER-HITCHENS-Dragged-war-clowns-run-railway.html

[vetuste_ennemi]

Peter Hitchens doesn't make a case against the bombing, does he? He makes the case against the competence of the "clowns" to make such a decision. I don't think that effort stretched him particularly.

[agchristie]

Nobody should be surprised at Hitchens views which are in the same vein as his snarling cynicism on Question Time.

I'm reliably informed his brother was more opinionated than him and that takes some doing. He should take a chill pill once in a while.

There is nothing 'alarmist' about ISIL. How many MP's agreed with the motion? Only a handful agree with Hitchens. How many countries form the coalition? Are they all wrong? Or maybe perhaps this is a global threat which requires an international strategic response?

This isn't someone elses problem. Hitchens polemical style is very tedious, the Utopian world he would prefer doesn't exist.

[dannyk13]

Yes, yes & yes.

[Gromit]

Hitchens hits the nail on the head here.

// A year ago, we were on the brink of aiding the people we now want to bomb, and busily encouraging the groups which have now become Islamic State. Now they are our hated foes. Which side are we actually on? Do we know? Do we have any idea what we are doing? //

The Government, obeying the US, have been in a muddle about what to do. We initially supported the wrong groups, and gave encouragement to the wrong side. That was a repeat of the US supporting the forerunner of al qaeda when they were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.
Supporting the wrong side then led us having to fight them for a decade and more when they turned against us.

History is repeating itself. The groups we were trying to arm last year have turned against us and now we will have to fight against them.

We are past the stage of doing nothing. If IS is not stopped they will be a problem for generations.

Obama's foreign policy over his two administrations has been a terrible failure. There was an opportunity to reshape the Middle East and make it a better place, but he has flunked decision after decision.

[naomi24]

As Gromit says, if IS is not stopped it will become a problem for generations – and longer. However, the cesspit of mayhem that is the Middle East will continue to be a cesspit of mayhem because it is, in the main, inhabited by the medieval mind-set that is Islam, and no western nation, regardless of its foreign policy could have changed that - and now the goal posts have moved. IS has declared war on the west and in the interests of self-preservation I see no alternative but to combat it. Failure to do that would be an error of gigantic proportions.

[agchristie]

The thing about Hitchens he is very good at slating and lambasting but frequently fails to put forward an alternative. He questions how we have 'allowed ourselves' to be governed by people devoid of logic and history etc and then states 'can we do anything about it'? followed by 'I fear not'. What does he expect then? Again, what does he suggest? He makes out that it's the electorate's fault but concedes that,ultimately, we have no choice.

His supercilious persona knows no bounds.

[sevenOP]

The UK government did not make any declaration of war aog, they adopted the coward's way that the US proposed. (the sanitized method)

Whether or not the Middle East would be a 'cesspit' if the imperialists and colonialist had not drawn up the borders is a moot point, but that meddling has now come back to haunt them.
We should be grateful other such meddling, that we profited by and owe our present living standards to, have not done the same....( yet?)

[keyplus90]

Only time will tell us if going to war was right or wrong. But I must give some credit to ISIS for making it possible what was not accomplished last year. Getting all these countries on board to attack Syria. Job well done ISIS, whoever you are.

[agchristie]

Keyplus,

More accurately, attacking ISIS targets in Syria. There is a difference. How is that a 'job well done'?

[keyplus90]

How would you know that ISIS targets are being hit? Every dead Afghan was Taliban or Al Qaeeda member and every dead Syrian or Iraqi might be ISIS member. Who knows?

[vulcan42]

Keyplus, if we are hitting the wrong targets we will soon hear about it.

[ladybirder]

Don't give me problems Peter Hitchens. Give me solutions.

[agchristie]

Keyplus, I think a collective military strategy will be far more defined than that of shooting ducks in a fairground. Operations will not be subject to a random scattergun approach.

[Hypognosis]

@sevenOP

//The UK government did not make any declaration of war aog, they adopted the coward's way that the US proposed. (the sanitized method) //

On a point of pedantry, only: Conventionally, a government can only declare war on another country - somthing which has an administration network to receive and process such a declaration.

Rag-tag groups of bandits do not merit a formal declaration of war. Indeed, no-one wants such an act to be misinterpreted as a recognition of nation status.

During all the bombing of the Taliban and Al-Qaida, the UK and USA were never at war with the nation of Afghanistan, for example.

I have no idea what the Russians hoped to achieve (beyond weapons-testing) but they did, spawning the Taliban as a resistance movement.

Makes me wonder how much of the death toll from 9/11 onwards is still a Russia-USA proxy war?

[DTCwordfan]

What a load of rambling twaddle Hitchens has written - pure sensationalism for Daily Wail readers. Bet his tune would turn pretty quickly if it was his brother facing the garotte of a rusty knife from some demented Brit Jihadist.

[DTCwordfan]

Also, are you going to share your strategies for dealing with this situation, AOG, rather than bleating away like some pinko that we shouldn't be supporting our Allies.

It's also rather naive to think that Obama et al haven't thought through the scenario plays here - I wouldn't expect them to publish them for the likes of us here on AB to criticise them, as it also says 'Doh, this is what we are going to do Mr Isis, just to give you time to prepare.' That would be really stoooopid.

My own solution, bombing, supplies starvation, and then the Iranians and Saudis to go in with the boots and, hopefully, the Turks to squeeze/pincer the ***. A friend in Saudi has indicated to me that there is a call-up going on for both young men and women out there....

[DTCwordfan]

s-ods is on the list, unbelievable....

[jno]

Hypognosis, does anyone declare war on anyone, bandits or not, these days?

Britain never declared war on Argentina. In fact the last country it declared war on was Thailand.

[Hypognosis]

@AOG

Well, as an alternative to war, we could just sit back and let them go on killing those they hate and taking control of oil production in the region.

But that would fuel opposition electoral rhetoric for years to come.

Perhaps we should send consultants to all those countries which are sitting on their hands (wrt IS) and how they rationalise their non-interventionist foreign policy stance during an election year?

[Hypognosis]

@jno

//Hypognosis, does anyone declare war on anyone, bandits or not, these days? //

I don't think anyone has actually uttered the words "we have left the age of empire-building and wars behind us" (although the Obamatron might have done) but there is something like a gentlemen's agreement that it won't ever happen again. Or that, if it did, mutually assured destruction would be the end result.

// Britain never declared war on Argentina.//

Eh??

// In fact the last country it declared war on was Thailand.//

I could be sucked into a Wiki vortex if I went and looked that one up. Post WWII?