Will This Bloke Ever Work Again?

[ToraToraTora]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30678251
It is after all difficult for any criminal to get work so I guess he's going to struggle.

[ummmm]

When I previously mentioned that there are different degrees of rape it angered a few people on here. I took their comments on board and agree that rape is rape...end of. I think sentencing should be harsher if violence is used.

[Gromit]

The girl has said she has no recollection of the incident. McDonald said the girl consented to sex when she grabbed him in the hotel room. When Evans arrived later and asked to join in, McDonald says she said 'Yes'.

The odd thing seems to be that the Jury believed McDonald when he said she consented to sex with him, but did not believe him when he said she said yes to Evans joining in.

We were not in court to hear how convincing McDonald was when he relayed his version of events, but there does seem odd that they believed his word on one point but not on the other.

[jim360]

I think the law is plenty able to distinguish, really. Firstly there is the sentencing choice, which can vary depending on the judge's assessment of how serious the crime was. Then there is the charge choice, where rape just covers (penetrative) sexual intercourse without consent; anything beyond that would imply other charges, or more counts of the same charge, or lesser charges of sexual assault if there was no penetrative sex involved.

In terms of deciding if he is legally guilty or not, it doesn't overly matter what he's accused of anyway, or how serious it is. What counts is the evidence against him.

[jim360]

A jury doesn't have to believe a defendant to find him not guilty. The evidence against him may not have been strong enough. If McDonald was thought to have lied about everything he said it still doesn't make him legally guilty.

[Prudie]

I still think this case is nowhere in the same league as a stranger dragging someone into an alley but also remember the previous threads and that some were angered by the idea that there are different degrees of rape is an understatement, certainly wouldn't want to re-enter into that discussion. Presuming he is guilty however, he's paid a pretty high price if some feel he should never work again.

[anotheoldgit]

Shouldn't the other guy have been charged with enticing another to commit rape? (I don't know the legal term but something like that)

Still can't see how he managed to get off scot free.

[ummmm]

Well we don't know what was actually said in the phone call.

From what I've read McDonald stopped when Evans joined in and left using the foyer. Evans left through the fire exit.

[jim360]

The reason AOG isn't known for certain, because juries don't or can't explain their decisions, but on the productions I've seen I would say that a conviction for McDonald would be very unsafe.

For a rape to be convicted one has to have lack of consent, and additionally lack of reasonable belief that there was consent. For McDonald it seems that he spent enough time with the woman who was, apparently, initiating proceedings that it does seem reasonable for him to believe that there was consent. For Ched Evans, whose arrival in the room was essentially instantaneously followed by sex, there are far fewer grounds for "reasonable belief" of consent. It's not enough to ask someone, especially if a) you've never met them and know knothing of their circumstances or mental state, b) they are naked on the bed and c) they are already having sex with someone else and so are in a vulnerable position.

Based on Ched Evans' own testimony I think it seems highly unlikely that he had reasonable belief of consent; whereas McDonald had gone through a taxi journey and long conversation with her. Again, I do not see an inconsistency.

[jno]

thanks for the squalid facts, jim... It actually looks not so much as if Evans was unlucky, as that McDonald was lucky. The woman doesn't seem to have drunk any more between having sex with one and having sex with the other; but it may be that the effect of the alcohol she'd already imbibed was increasing its effect as the night wore on. I still think that, as a juror, that's a judgment call I'd be very reluctant to make.

I'm intrigued by the idea of long-term psychological consequences of something you didn't know about.

[ummmm]

The CCTV shows her falling over drunk.

[jno]

that's why I thought McDonald was lucky.

[retrocop]

Where would the lady and gentlemen abers draw the line on this subject? Evans is convicted of rape by due process of law.Evans has lost his highly paid job of kicking a ball about. Quite a few highly skilled physicians, surgeons and other medical practisers have been found guilty of sexual impropriety whilst in a position of trust.I hear no pleas for them to be reinstated by the BMA. Who would serve a better use to society a footballer or a cancer specialist? Perhaps all sexual offenders in the medical profession who have been convicted should be allowed to administer their skills to yor wife or daughter providing they were chaperoned of course. I don't hear pleas for clemency for them. NIMBY springs to mind.

[Zacs-Master]

I couldn't really draw the line unless you found a few specific examples of high-end medical staff who'd a) been convicted and b)lost their jobs.
I would comment tho that Evans is a much more public figure whom youngsters are potentially influenced by, so not it's not really a comparable situation.

[Svejk]

It's mob rule, a witch hunt. There's no law against playing football or earning lots of money. This campaign against him IS being led man-hating 'feminists'.
As for the idea that he should return to 'proper' working class jobs, Ha!

[mushroom25]

//It's mob rule, a witch hunt. There's no law against playing football or earning lots of money. This campaign against him IS being led man-hating 'feminists'.//

so, is it ok then for his victim to be repeatedly "outed" in flagrant breach of court orders, etc?

[Svejk]

No. Has he condoned that, then? Or can we just punish people for the actions of others now.

[ChillDoubt]

so, is it ok then for his victim to be repeatedly "outed" in flagrant breach of court orders, etc?
--------------------
No, but is it also ok for him to continually be refused gainful employment in flagrant disregard of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act?

[jim360]

There is no violation of that act:

"Sentences of over 4 years will never become spent and must continue to be disclosed when necessary."

So yes, it is OK for him, or at least not in violation of any act, to continue to be refused employment if the employers don't want to employ him. That is their choice, and considering the continual public outcry every time he goes near a football club, who can blame them?

[jim360]

I would be surprised if it is a successful appeal, because he's already tried a couple of times and failed. The conviction seems safe to me. Based on what I've seen the only reason for him to maintain his innocence is a misunderstanding of what it means to have "reasonable belief of consent". He may well have believed that she had consented, but it doesn't seem reasonable given how little time he'd spent between entering the room and initiating sex.

Still, we'll have to let due process run his course. The Labour MP for Oldham suggested that it was at least sensible for him to wait for the appeal process to conclude before trying to play football again, and with that at least even his supporters should agree. He is currently guilty and continues to show no remorse and to protest his innocence, and until that situation changes, one way or another, it's hard to see him having any future in football. And who can blame football clubs who decide not to touch him?