Arming British Police

[retrocop]

Forgive me for putting this in News when I do not supply some link to invite you to debate this thread.
Earlier today on LBC radio it was asked if we think, in light of Paris, that British police should be armed permanently.
If gunmen burst into the Savoy Hotel would it be better that a local copper had a firearm rather than hide in a corner and radio for armed back up from an ARV who could be 9 minutes plus away? Remember Lee Rigby. Officers on scene but unarmed and powerless until ARV arrived.
Not all police officers feel happy about carrying firearms. I can respect that decision although as a member of a unit that carried a H&K MP5 single shot 9mm carbine plus a Glock 9mm for the last 20yrs of my service I was none too happy about some of my colleagues who never loaded their weapons and locked them in the glove box of the vehicles they travelled in.
We are told we have members of the Special Recognicance Regiment patrolling in plain clothes around London along with armed plain clothes police officers. Allegedly the army officers are not armed. I hope that is not true. Why bother to have them? Of course we have an army member arrested for murder during terrorist troubles years ago so perhaps the SRR are not happy with the so called rules of engagement the H.O. wish to saddle them with.
There are many ex police/army firearms trained personnel living in London
and other towns/cities. Would you feel safer knowing that there may be an armed gentleman dining next to you who would be happy to intervene should a terrorist storm your restaurant.
It isn't that stupid or laughable. The LDV/Homeguard (Dad's Army) were entrusted with firearms to protect their countrymen in times of war.
Obviously some older gentlemen would have to be tested as to their capability in possessing and using a firearm in a close quarter situation but do any body think there may be some merit in the suggestion that sensible ,capable persons who have been trained in the use of firearms be allowed to carry them covertly and use them to protect their fellow citizens?
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[shaneystar2]

My brother is an old police officer long retired now ,trained in handling firearms and he was more than probably a much higher rank than you ever attained but unlike you he doesn't gob off about it at every whip and turn but I can assure you his answer would be an emphatic no.
Do you really want this country turned into down town America where they shoot first and ask questions afterwards.

[Baldric]

Baz, don't worry, no self respecting geriatric will be seen in a Wimpy!

[retrocop]

Sir Oracle
I appreciate your thoughts. I am in agreement that we would not want our police officers carry fire arms as a matter of course. That is the U.S. police academy style of firearms training in training school. Some excellent potential police officers in the UK would hate to have a firearm as a condition of service and that must be taken as read. I do feel, however, that those who are capable and sane enough to carry a handgun should be allowed to do so Why not? As I said earlier certain persons are allowed to carry covert firearms for the rest of their life. Who would not feel safer if they thought someone may be in a position to protect others in a restaurant they happened to be in ?

[Hypognosis]

@Baldric

I guess you must be on army pension then? No need for you to fret about sub-inflation pay rises, eh? Why mince words: call them pay cuts, fer crying out loud.

Back on topic. Remember that "pay to play at cops" guy in America who was 70 odd and couldn't tell his taser from his weapon? That was just some rich ex-businessman with friends in the force.

As long as there's no risk of that here and the annual psych evaluations aren't cripplingly expensive, then why not?

[baza]

My late father, a police officer for thirty years and also did his bit in the far east during ww2, would turn in his grave at the thought of armed police on the streets. Yes he did acknowledge the need for trained specialist officers but not all carrying guns.

[Hypognosis]

This debate has run for years and I have always been opposed to a 100% armed police.

But shouldn't we acknowledge the changed circumstances, in the light of recent events?

[Baldric]

Hypo, never been a member of the Army in my life, ex Royal Marine and proud of it.

[SirOracle]

Retrocop I presume that the "people" you refer to who are permitted to carry hidden weapons are very few in number, so this doesn't really come into the discussion.

I am happy to "take my chances" when I am dining in a restaurant or having a libation in a pub and if trouble breaks out let it be "sorted out",without the intervention of some trigger happy gun toting cowboy.

[retrocop]

Sir Oracle
Fair enough. I appreciate your opinions. It was not my intent to spread alarm and despondency . Just wondered if the wind may change in the future how some of your opinions may change. A lot of ABers are happy to hang members of our armed forces out to dry for so called breaches of the Geneva Convention . Do you want armed /unarmed police or military protecting you in case of a similar atrocity in Paris or not in the Uk?

[retrocop]

Sir Oracle
//I am happy to "take my chances" when I am dining in a restaurant or having a libation in a pub and if trouble breaks out let it be "sorted out",without the intervention of some trigger happy gun toting cowboy//

If some Kalashnikov toting terrorist entered your restaurant in London please tell me how you sort it out when they spread full auto at you and your family. I am sure some Parisians, now dead, would of been grateful for your helpful advice,
They might be grateful, if still alive, that a former soldier could have prevented their deaths by use of a legally carried firearm.
Oh well I admire your stoic heroism although some would call it stupidity. :-(

[SirOracle]

Retro I read your reasoned post,but you are far from convincing me that your ideas would be an improvement. To my simple mind more guns equals more people liable to being shot.

I have complete sympathy for the people in Paris,as I have said in a previous posting,as I cancelled my visit to this city last Saturday.
However I don't think that one person armed with a hand gun would have any effect on someone with a Kalashnikov spraying the premises.

I would add that I served in the Army (yes a pongo),but I tend to be fairly reticent about this,so like your goodself I have a certain knowledge of weaponry.

[david small]

Unfortunately future situations will inevitably result in more covert personal weapons being carried. As to arming the police generally, I think the quality of some officers is way below the standards required. Brother in law, ex chief inspector, now runs a gun store in USA would arm all officers immediately, albeit after sufficient training and personal profiling. It will come retro, and you will see it. Old England passed away quietly, RIP.

[Old_Geezer]

Such incidents are not going to change my mind. Society is much worse when folk are routinely armed. Escalates things too. Routinely arm police and the terrorist has changed our way of life and scored a victory. That's all one needs to know to answer the issue with no, leave well alone.

[youngmafbog]

Why do people have to bring the USA into the equation? To support their 'cowboy' assertions perhaps? Police forces around the World carry guns, on show and hidden.

It's always a difficult one this but I think it should be viewed on the whole job not just on one angle. Having said that I am in favour of more armed Police. To often the Police are faced with a firearm whilst they have a truncheon (or whatever its equivalent is).

[youngmafbog]

Why the comment like that then Bouncer?

As far as I can see posters are giving their credentials to support why they are saying something, i.e. the fact they have the experience to comment.

I was far more surprised that someone thought the Army were in the Falklands.

[Peter Pedant]

well it would certainly increase the number of gun shot incidents in the streets

Retro has been partial in saying who is and isnt armed
Brit Airport Police tote guns and so apparently do the Nuclear Police ( but I have never seen one ) and I have to say I dont feel safer when I see them

also diplomatic corps police routinely carry firearms innit ?

and no I dont think the local police station should be armed to the teeth
not where I live anyway

[ one p'liceman actually managed to shoot and kill another p'liceman in an exercise and it took a lot of jiggling and joggling to get the Chief Constable uncharged with corporate manslaughter - not in the public interest blah blah blah ]

[Peter Pedant]

// Why do people have to bring the USA into the equation?//

because there are lots of guns there and lots of gun related deaths ( ten thou I think p a ) duuuh

[jourdain2]

I'm a little concerned about the police in general being armed, because of the number of 'trigger-happy' mistakes they have made in the past. Yet Retrocop's post is a very fair one.

Where I live there are a lot of people with shotguns (the mum of one has promised me a pheasant! :) ) but no-one is 'gun happy'. These are safe, sensible people. Mr. J2 was trained as a marksman during his National Service and still has keen eyesight to be a good shot, also not a panicky sort, so I think that ex- Forces trained people might possibly be specially licensed - subject to checks - to carry firearms. Their training was rigorous.

It's sad that we should have to consider this. :(