Crosswords0 min ago
So What Should We Do With Brutish Steel?
37 Answers
I am in two minds here, on one side there is the terrible devistation that failure will bring to communites if we do nothing, on the other the cost seems too high to bail it out.
But in the other hand I look at the 35bn sent to tge EU and the 12bn in foreign aid and I have to ask, just how can we justify supporting other countries whilst chucking our own on the scrap heap?. Of course the governments hands are pretty much tied on what they can do thans to the eu, doubt spineless dave will get our lords and masters in bruxelles to agree to allowing us to help our own.
Havind said that we keep hearing how the Welsh would leave us and go to the eu on theur own so perhaps Port Talbot should be left for tge EU to sort out.
But in the other hand I look at the 35bn sent to tge EU and the 12bn in foreign aid and I have to ask, just how can we justify supporting other countries whilst chucking our own on the scrap heap?. Of course the governments hands are pretty much tied on what they can do thans to the eu, doubt spineless dave will get our lords and masters in bruxelles to agree to allowing us to help our own.
Havind said that we keep hearing how the Welsh would leave us and go to the eu on theur own so perhaps Port Talbot should be left for tge EU to sort out.
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We need to concentrate on importing raw steel as cheaply as possible and then forming it into the complex products we need. We can never compete in making our own steel, we have to import the raw materials , iron ore and coal anyway so why not just import the actual steel and do the technical stuff with it?
sounds like you need a trip to China to understand what is really happening to the world market.
In short, you have missed one major thing....that is UK steel has failed to specialise and find the value added markets, carbon/titanium/chromium mix steels and all the rest. If we think we can compete against the bulk market, a market that has a huge overcapacity, then we are deluding ourselves. Restructuring is needed big time plus all that goes with marketing specialist materials.
In short, you have missed one major thing....that is UK steel has failed to specialise and find the value added markets, carbon/titanium/chromium mix steels and all the rest. If we think we can compete against the bulk market, a market that has a huge overcapacity, then we are deluding ourselves. Restructuring is needed big time plus all that goes with marketing specialist materials.
david small, It WAS nationalized remember ? The government sold it off back in 1988! It has not been 'British Steel' since then, it is a 100% Indian company owned by Tata based in Mumbai.
Why would we buy back a company that is losing over £1 million a DAY with no prospect of ever being able to run at a profit?
Why would we buy back a company that is losing over £1 million a DAY with no prospect of ever being able to run at a profit?
OG has made an important point here.
When mass employment happened, due to the de-industrialisation policies of the 80' and 90's, Britain was left with a massive bill to pay in benefits payments, to workers and families that were left behind.
Take coal, for instance. It is only cheaper to import coal from Western Australia, on the other of the planet, because the companies importing that Ozzie coal don't have to pay the millions of pounds required to our own former miners and their families. If these companies had to pay a premium or a levy for that coal, would it still be cheaper than British coal ?
If steel making is to die in places like Port Talbot, we all have to pay for those families to continue to live, out of general taxation. Whether we pay steel workers to produce steel, or we give them money in SS payments, the money still has to be found.
If steel making is to stop in Port Talbot, the town will be devastated, in an area that still hasn't recovered from the previous round of de-industrialisation, of 20-30 years ago.
So .....money for steel or money for dole ? Dave has this choice to make.
When mass employment happened, due to the de-industrialisation policies of the 80' and 90's, Britain was left with a massive bill to pay in benefits payments, to workers and families that were left behind.
Take coal, for instance. It is only cheaper to import coal from Western Australia, on the other of the planet, because the companies importing that Ozzie coal don't have to pay the millions of pounds required to our own former miners and their families. If these companies had to pay a premium or a levy for that coal, would it still be cheaper than British coal ?
If steel making is to die in places like Port Talbot, we all have to pay for those families to continue to live, out of general taxation. Whether we pay steel workers to produce steel, or we give them money in SS payments, the money still has to be found.
If steel making is to stop in Port Talbot, the town will be devastated, in an area that still hasn't recovered from the previous round of de-industrialisation, of 20-30 years ago.
So .....money for steel or money for dole ? Dave has this choice to make.
Why does mikey, now, care about the fate of British workers, when he's been AB's biggest cheerleader for mass immigration.
I believe other countries insist their own steel, or whatever, must be used when handing out government contracts. Probably not allowed by EU rules. (not that that would stop other EU countries applying it)
I believe other countries insist their own steel, or whatever, must be used when handing out government contracts. Probably not allowed by EU rules. (not that that would stop other EU countries applying it)
I have posted previously when this debate was running, and I will repeat what I said then - it's down to two simple words, which the Conservatives live by - market forces.
This is a business, and it cannot ever sustain steel-making in the UK ever again, and that is the beginning and the end of the situation.
It is pointless to carry on about villages and towns laid waste and entire communities decimated - economics cares nothing for these notions.
As long as China is able to sell bulk steel at a price that is cheaper than it costs UK sites to make it, then the UK steel industry is over, permanently.
I come from Stoke-on-Trent, and in the last thirty years, I have watched one of the largest Michelin plants in Europe downsized to about a tenth of its previous size, one of the largest steel mills in the UK closed, the deepest coal mine in the UK, and all other mines in the area closed, and the native pottery industry outsourced abroad, so I am no stranger to the economic and social effects of the world economy.
But nothing stopped these seismic changes to the city I live in - because economic profit and loss is what calls the shots in manufacturing - compete or close.
Sadly, steel is no exception to this rule - we should accept that steel production is over, and either adapt the plants to specialist manufacture, or get on with closing them.
It's tragic, but profit is no respecter of lives and individuals.
This is a business, and it cannot ever sustain steel-making in the UK ever again, and that is the beginning and the end of the situation.
It is pointless to carry on about villages and towns laid waste and entire communities decimated - economics cares nothing for these notions.
As long as China is able to sell bulk steel at a price that is cheaper than it costs UK sites to make it, then the UK steel industry is over, permanently.
I come from Stoke-on-Trent, and in the last thirty years, I have watched one of the largest Michelin plants in Europe downsized to about a tenth of its previous size, one of the largest steel mills in the UK closed, the deepest coal mine in the UK, and all other mines in the area closed, and the native pottery industry outsourced abroad, so I am no stranger to the economic and social effects of the world economy.
But nothing stopped these seismic changes to the city I live in - because economic profit and loss is what calls the shots in manufacturing - compete or close.
Sadly, steel is no exception to this rule - we should accept that steel production is over, and either adapt the plants to specialist manufacture, or get on with closing them.
It's tragic, but profit is no respecter of lives and individuals.
All this has come about by allowing foreign countries to buy most of our industrial companies.
We have sold off almost everything, our energy companies, etc and even our docks.
http://
We were once the workshop of the world, what have we got left now?
We have sold off almost everything, our energy companies, etc and even our docks.
http://
We were once the workshop of the world, what have we got left now?
Andy...another way describe the Tories "Market Forces" policy, is the politics of the dole queue.
We have been here so many times before...whole communities reduced down to poverty and desperation, with massive sums of money spent on people on the Dole, instead of providing a lifeline that British industry so desperately needs.
If and when the ruddy HS2 starts, it will require enormous amounts of steel, but should that steel come from Britain, or somewhere else in the world, where the workers are paid peanuts ?
OG is perfectly correct here. The Governments first priority is to look after its own people, but the reality for our present Tory Government is that there are no Tory votes to care about in Port Talbot in particular, and South Wales in general.
If this industry was located in leafy Surrey, there area would be infested with Tory MPs and Ministers, running around like headless chickens, desperate to "do something"
I heard Anna Soubry being interviewed yesterday, and this morning on the Today Program. When she wasn't interrupting the interviewer, she was babbling along merrily, but not actually willing to say what the Governments position on this affair was, other than being frighfully sorry and all that.
We need action from our Government, not crocodile tears. We might not have voted for them in South Wales but they are our Government nevertheless.
We have been here so many times before...whole communities reduced down to poverty and desperation, with massive sums of money spent on people on the Dole, instead of providing a lifeline that British industry so desperately needs.
If and when the ruddy HS2 starts, it will require enormous amounts of steel, but should that steel come from Britain, or somewhere else in the world, where the workers are paid peanuts ?
OG is perfectly correct here. The Governments first priority is to look after its own people, but the reality for our present Tory Government is that there are no Tory votes to care about in Port Talbot in particular, and South Wales in general.
If this industry was located in leafy Surrey, there area would be infested with Tory MPs and Ministers, running around like headless chickens, desperate to "do something"
I heard Anna Soubry being interviewed yesterday, and this morning on the Today Program. When she wasn't interrupting the interviewer, she was babbling along merrily, but not actually willing to say what the Governments position on this affair was, other than being frighfully sorry and all that.
We need action from our Government, not crocodile tears. We might not have voted for them in South Wales but they are our Government nevertheless.
\\\\If this industry was located in leafy Surrey, there area would be infested with Tory MPs and Ministers, running around like headless chickens, desperate to "do something" \\\
If these Steelworks were in "leafy Surrey" it would not be "leafy Surrey" but a location packed with small terraced houses and a Labour government ruling without a Tory in sight.
Difficult decision.......support a business that is going downhill, by taxation and Nationalisation OR let Market forces have their way.
A loss of £1million a day is not sustainable.
I would not like to make that decision.......but someone must.
If these Steelworks were in "leafy Surrey" it would not be "leafy Surrey" but a location packed with small terraced houses and a Labour government ruling without a Tory in sight.
Difficult decision.......support a business that is going downhill, by taxation and Nationalisation OR let Market forces have their way.
A loss of £1million a day is not sustainable.
I would not like to make that decision.......but someone must.
If British Steel was still nationalised then of course the government should hep.
What you have to remember is that this is a privately owned business.
If my privately owned corner shop as in this predicament, would the government help out? Of course not, and rightly so.
I feel sorry for the steel workers but I do not want a penny of my taxes spent on helping out an Indian company (Tata)
What you have to remember is that this is a privately owned business.
If my privately owned corner shop as in this predicament, would the government help out? Of course not, and rightly so.
I feel sorry for the steel workers but I do not want a penny of my taxes spent on helping out an Indian company (Tata)
Sqad...first of all ....good morning !
My remarks about leafy Surrey was meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I am sure you realised !
What about my argument about the millions required to support the 1000's of sacked workers and their families ? If the British people have to fork out for this money, through its general taxation, wouldn't it be better to get some steel out of it ?
Someone with more time on their hands than I have, can do the arithmetic associated with throwing 3500 people in one community, in order to calculate the benefits spending, but I would much rather use that to keep people in jobs. As OG has said, it should be a priority of any Government, Tory or Labour, to look after its own people first, rather than support Chinese workers.
My remarks about leafy Surrey was meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I am sure you realised !
What about my argument about the millions required to support the 1000's of sacked workers and their families ? If the British people have to fork out for this money, through its general taxation, wouldn't it be better to get some steel out of it ?
Someone with more time on their hands than I have, can do the arithmetic associated with throwing 3500 people in one community, in order to calculate the benefits spending, but I would much rather use that to keep people in jobs. As OG has said, it should be a priority of any Government, Tory or Labour, to look after its own people first, rather than support Chinese workers.
The SNP seem to of saved the Scottish plants http://
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