ChatterBank4 mins ago
Brexit Won't Happen Before Scotland's Views Are Considered
160 Answers
What do we think May's tactics are here?
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Answers
Very sensible. Brexit seriously threatens the existence of the U.K. and threatens to destabilise Ireland. She has no choice. The votes in Scotland and NI cannot be ignored. What exactly one does, I don't know, but I don't think anyone else does yet either
07:43 Sat 16th Jul 2016
It was worded as typical "promises" in politics are, so it's not totally unreasonable. And besides, shoving "I promise" in front of something political doesn't guarantee that such a promise will be carried out anyway.
Whether or not you see it as nonsense, it's vital that we hold the leaders of the Leave campaign to account for the way they sold their case. In many ways it was factually wrong, or extraordinarily arrogant or dismissive (such as Gove's "I think this country has had enough of experts" guff.) Whatever you make of this particular claim/ aspiration, etc -- well, firstly, it's obvious that at least some of the people who voted for Brexit had this in mind, so you've managed to insult people on your own side with that "half a brain" comments -- and, secondly, the point is that it fits into a picture of selling a vision of Brexit that is at best only an aspiration and at worst totally unrealistic and unachievable. Some Brexit supporters are still at the same thing today, in fact. I'd say it's pretty disturbing that you don't seem to care.
In the long run, it shows how poor our politics is that people leading the Leave campaign thought it was a good idea to try this and make something of it. It says a lot about how politicians on both sides see the electorate. They shouldn't be treated that way. I really hope that you can reserve your condemnations and accusations of nonsense for the Leaders of the Leave campaign (and the Remain campaign, in kind), rather than for the electorate.
Whether or not you see it as nonsense, it's vital that we hold the leaders of the Leave campaign to account for the way they sold their case. In many ways it was factually wrong, or extraordinarily arrogant or dismissive (such as Gove's "I think this country has had enough of experts" guff.) Whatever you make of this particular claim/ aspiration, etc -- well, firstly, it's obvious that at least some of the people who voted for Brexit had this in mind, so you've managed to insult people on your own side with that "half a brain" comments -- and, secondly, the point is that it fits into a picture of selling a vision of Brexit that is at best only an aspiration and at worst totally unrealistic and unachievable. Some Brexit supporters are still at the same thing today, in fact. I'd say it's pretty disturbing that you don't seem to care.
In the long run, it shows how poor our politics is that people leading the Leave campaign thought it was a good idea to try this and make something of it. It says a lot about how politicians on both sides see the electorate. They shouldn't be treated that way. I really hope that you can reserve your condemnations and accusations of nonsense for the Leaders of the Leave campaign (and the Remain campaign, in kind), rather than for the electorate.
Hmmm takes me a while to type.
And, as everyone knows, since no evidence has ever been produced to show any promise that the £350M was going to the NHS, that it was Nigel who was making an error in that interview.
Nigel has always said it was a mistake to show £350M going to the EU (obviously because although it was true it allowed remainists to point out that there was a temporary discount that gets removed before the actual data is passed from one account to the other). But that was never denied anyway. The point being made was that we were signed up to pay £350M not that we were contracted to pay less; had past negotiations contracted us to pay less then the figure would have been reduced rather than a temporary discount added in.
So to be straight, no one claimed £350M was going to be available to go to the NHS. Indeed anyone with more than a single brain cell to rub together would realise that it was not just one area that needed the money saved but other grants needed supporting also. No one claimed £350M was actually paid over, but that we were contracted to pay it. Reid asking if the £350M was going to the NHS was simply remainer mischief making (something remain supporters are still prone to do it seems). Nige, in the heat of the moment, made a rare mistake of falling into the trap by saying it was a mistake the leave campaign made, not him; when clearly they hadn't.
Obviously he was answering a different question to the one posed; and having got the wrong question into his head continued with his explanation more than once. The mistake by the leave campaign was in telling the truth but in such a way that it allowed the remain campaign to make mischief.
Reid then carried on with her remainer goal by stating it was just propaganda, and suggesting 17M people voted based on it. I know interviewers are not supposed to give politicians an easy time but this was ludicrous and did not help clarify the true situation at all, but strived to muddy it further.
And, as everyone knows, since no evidence has ever been produced to show any promise that the £350M was going to the NHS, that it was Nigel who was making an error in that interview.
Nigel has always said it was a mistake to show £350M going to the EU (obviously because although it was true it allowed remainists to point out that there was a temporary discount that gets removed before the actual data is passed from one account to the other). But that was never denied anyway. The point being made was that we were signed up to pay £350M not that we were contracted to pay less; had past negotiations contracted us to pay less then the figure would have been reduced rather than a temporary discount added in.
So to be straight, no one claimed £350M was going to be available to go to the NHS. Indeed anyone with more than a single brain cell to rub together would realise that it was not just one area that needed the money saved but other grants needed supporting also. No one claimed £350M was actually paid over, but that we were contracted to pay it. Reid asking if the £350M was going to the NHS was simply remainer mischief making (something remain supporters are still prone to do it seems). Nige, in the heat of the moment, made a rare mistake of falling into the trap by saying it was a mistake the leave campaign made, not him; when clearly they hadn't.
Obviously he was answering a different question to the one posed; and having got the wrong question into his head continued with his explanation more than once. The mistake by the leave campaign was in telling the truth but in such a way that it allowed the remain campaign to make mischief.
Reid then carried on with her remainer goal by stating it was just propaganda, and suggesting 17M people voted based on it. I know interviewers are not supposed to give politicians an easy time but this was ludicrous and did not help clarify the true situation at all, but strived to muddy it further.
In fact we almost certainly won't get the money back, firstly because the negotiations may lead to an arrangement in which we still pay some, most or all of it, and secondly because most of the money ends up spent -- effectively -- on various subsidies or grants or funding that would be incredibly damaging to cancel to the farming, scientific, fishing, etc industries.
The Leave campaign could have made a far more honest case than they actually did. That should be obvious. I don't think it would have been any less effective, either.
The Leave campaign could have made a far more honest case than they actually did. That should be obvious. I don't think it would have been any less effective, either.
If the rest of the government doesn't agree with the outcome from the Brexit department then they risk their seats at the next election.
The bus was never emblazoned with the suggestion that £350M should be spent on the NHS. I'm unsure why folk need to point out what others can see if they look.
The £350M was correct, it is what we had as our subscription.
We have yet to see the experts' guff come true.
I doubt many were so foolish as to vote according to one small part that they could not understand. I suspect the vast majority were not fooled by the remain camp into thinking anything other that what was actually stated.
If folk, such as Sturgeon, try to get us to pay it all anyway this would be totally unacceptable to the people who will realise a betrayal of the referendum and will react accordingly.
The leave camp campaigning could hardly have been more honest; whereas the remain camp with their fear spreading are seeing their claims turn to dust; which since they thought they'd win the referendum, they didn't think would be tested at all.
The bus was never emblazoned with the suggestion that £350M should be spent on the NHS. I'm unsure why folk need to point out what others can see if they look.
The £350M was correct, it is what we had as our subscription.
We have yet to see the experts' guff come true.
I doubt many were so foolish as to vote according to one small part that they could not understand. I suspect the vast majority were not fooled by the remain camp into thinking anything other that what was actually stated.
If folk, such as Sturgeon, try to get us to pay it all anyway this would be totally unacceptable to the people who will realise a betrayal of the referendum and will react accordingly.
The leave camp campaigning could hardly have been more honest; whereas the remain camp with their fear spreading are seeing their claims turn to dust; which since they thought they'd win the referendum, they didn't think would be tested at all.
Britain will be paying money to the EU for years yet, since it bungled the CAP programme
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'The leave campaign could hardly have been more honest'
It's statements like that which serve to undermine the few bits of sense you post OG.
The Remain campaign warned time and time again that we risked entering uncharted waters. All this political fall out is part of that. As I recall, the leave campaign were all about 'Ah don't worry it'll be fiiiiine'.
It's statements like that which serve to undermine the few bits of sense you post OG.
The Remain campaign warned time and time again that we risked entering uncharted waters. All this political fall out is part of that. As I recall, the leave campaign were all about 'Ah don't worry it'll be fiiiiine'.
But presumably that's entirely the problem. Every time politicians come out with this stuff, we just forget it and move on. So they carry on, because they get away with it. Time after time after time. On occasion we may score small victories -- one politician removed here, another party briefly booted out of office or destroyed electorally -- but they are always hollow, because the replacements drafted in just try the same thing again.
Maybe that's how politics will always work, but it would be nice to see people at least try to change it, and part of that means not just "forgetting and getting over it" when it does happen.
Maybe that's how politics will always work, but it would be nice to see people at least try to change it, and part of that means not just "forgetting and getting over it" when it does happen.
If the Leave campaign had not intended folk to believe that all EU money would go to the NHS, why did they not use the words "Let's give some of..." and were there any posters suggesting the money be given to farmers for example, thus suggesting the
pot would be divided out rather than given to an indivual area of concern?
pot would be divided out rather than given to an indivual area of concern?
Politicians pretend to be in a position they are not all the time -- for example, lately some are apparently pretending to be in a position where most of the EU will gladly acquiesce to all of our demands while giving up all of theirs.
While they can't be held responsible if people believe their lies, they can be held responsible for lying in the first place.
While they can't be held responsible if people believe their lies, they can be held responsible for lying in the first place.
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