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Top Judge Overturns France's Burkini Ban!
153 Answers
Answers
Personally I'm against such bans, not because there isn't a battle to fought against repressive forms of Islam of which things like the burqa are ostentatious symbols, but because it;s the wrong terrain to fight - we're marching uphill in mud. (Remember Waterloo?). As is evident from the two threads on AB and the legal appeals in France, it's given the...
18:04 Fri 26th Aug 2016
Haven't read all the thread yey
andy-hughes
Those who believe that Islam represents the end of the world as we know it (when they finally get around to actually doing something about it that is!) are extremely fond of telling us that Muslim women are all subjugated by their men and forced to wear horrible clothing which they hate because they have no choice.
I have continually put forward the view that maybe (and I don't know this, but that's the beauty of not being an 'expert', I'm not required to know!) - just maybe, Muslim women enjoy a sense of modesty and prefer not to be exposed to men in public, simply because that is what makes them feel more comfortable.
It's just an opinion.
16:28 Fri 26th Aug 2016
I'm off the opinion that if given the chance Muslim women would ebb away from the wearing of headgear in particular the burka..
Whilst in Chamonix I witnessed one of your women enjoying a sense of modesty, andy.
A Muslim man was enjoying playing with his son on a climbing wall, the woman just sat nearby clad from head to toe in black, not seeming to enjoy the activities of her husband and son. When they had finished on the wall the man and son moved on to the next attraction they walked passed the woman and it appeared as though she didn't exist as they passed her. She then got up and walked behind them and sat down near the trampolines were the child and father were enjoying themselves. The scenario of walking past her and then her following was repeated.
Now you can talk all the drivel that you want (anyone not just AH) but nobody will ever convince me women want to wear this garb and want to lead the life of an obedient dog ... because in my opinion that appeared to be what her life was all about.
Off you go ....
andy-hughes
Those who believe that Islam represents the end of the world as we know it (when they finally get around to actually doing something about it that is!) are extremely fond of telling us that Muslim women are all subjugated by their men and forced to wear horrible clothing which they hate because they have no choice.
I have continually put forward the view that maybe (and I don't know this, but that's the beauty of not being an 'expert', I'm not required to know!) - just maybe, Muslim women enjoy a sense of modesty and prefer not to be exposed to men in public, simply because that is what makes them feel more comfortable.
It's just an opinion.
16:28 Fri 26th Aug 2016
I'm off the opinion that if given the chance Muslim women would ebb away from the wearing of headgear in particular the burka..
Whilst in Chamonix I witnessed one of your women enjoying a sense of modesty, andy.
A Muslim man was enjoying playing with his son on a climbing wall, the woman just sat nearby clad from head to toe in black, not seeming to enjoy the activities of her husband and son. When they had finished on the wall the man and son moved on to the next attraction they walked passed the woman and it appeared as though she didn't exist as they passed her. She then got up and walked behind them and sat down near the trampolines were the child and father were enjoying themselves. The scenario of walking past her and then her following was repeated.
Now you can talk all the drivel that you want (anyone not just AH) but nobody will ever convince me women want to wear this garb and want to lead the life of an obedient dog ... because in my opinion that appeared to be what her life was all about.
Off you go ....
good luck wearing bikinis in saudi.....muslims = trouble..wherever they go
about time these people started abiding by our laws and customs...why they come to non muslim countries is a mystery...oh hold on, wait a minute...
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Careful DB, you might be on to something there.....
Don't expect an explanation from the apologists though.
about time these people started abiding by our laws and customs...why they come to non muslim countries is a mystery...oh hold on, wait a minute...
-----------------
Careful DB, you might be on to something there.....
Don't expect an explanation from the apologists though.
From an article on the BBC website:
"In France, everybody is free to dress the way they like as long as they abide by the law. Everybody should therefore be free to wear a burkini," he argues. "This, however, doesn't mean we should be naive. The burkini offers a separatist vision of society and applies pressure on other women in the Muslim community."
In fact, the burkini challenges two fundamental French values and traditions: women's emancipation and a desire to live together as one nation.
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Sums it up succinctly.
"In France, everybody is free to dress the way they like as long as they abide by the law. Everybody should therefore be free to wear a burkini," he argues. "This, however, doesn't mean we should be naive. The burkini offers a separatist vision of society and applies pressure on other women in the Muslim community."
In fact, the burkini challenges two fundamental French values and traditions: women's emancipation and a desire to live together as one nation.
-----------
Sums it up succinctly.
Talbot - //Whilst in Chamonix I witnessed one of your women enjoying a sense of modesty, andy. //
One of 'my women'????? What a very strange thing to say!! I don't have any women!!!
A Muslim man was enjoying playing with his son on a climbing wall, the woman just sat nearby clad from head to toe in black, not seeming to enjoy the activities of her husband and son. When they had finished on the wall the man and son moved on to the next attraction they walked passed the woman and it appeared as though she didn't exist as they passed her. She then got up and walked behind them and sat down near the trampolines were the child and father were enjoying themselves. The scenario of walking past her and then her following was repeated.
Now you can talk all the drivel that you want (anyone not just AH) but nobody will ever convince me women want to wear this garb and want to lead the life of an obedient dog ... because in my opinion that appeared to be what her life was all about. //
If you wish to base the notion of the subjugation of the women of an entire religious faith based on seeing one family interact, and then put your own interpretation on what you have seen - then go right ahead.
If I was a Muslim man walking down a street in Britain, and I saw a white man and a white woman having a stand-up row, and she slapped him in the face - could I conclude that all English men are beaten and cowed by their wives and dare not defend themselves?
Or would that be looking at one incident and hanging the behaviour of an entire culture on it - which would be utterly ludicrous?
What do you think?
One of 'my women'????? What a very strange thing to say!! I don't have any women!!!
A Muslim man was enjoying playing with his son on a climbing wall, the woman just sat nearby clad from head to toe in black, not seeming to enjoy the activities of her husband and son. When they had finished on the wall the man and son moved on to the next attraction they walked passed the woman and it appeared as though she didn't exist as they passed her. She then got up and walked behind them and sat down near the trampolines were the child and father were enjoying themselves. The scenario of walking past her and then her following was repeated.
Now you can talk all the drivel that you want (anyone not just AH) but nobody will ever convince me women want to wear this garb and want to lead the life of an obedient dog ... because in my opinion that appeared to be what her life was all about. //
If you wish to base the notion of the subjugation of the women of an entire religious faith based on seeing one family interact, and then put your own interpretation on what you have seen - then go right ahead.
If I was a Muslim man walking down a street in Britain, and I saw a white man and a white woman having a stand-up row, and she slapped him in the face - could I conclude that all English men are beaten and cowed by their wives and dare not defend themselves?
Or would that be looking at one incident and hanging the behaviour of an entire culture on it - which would be utterly ludicrous?
What do you think?
Talbot - //I know what I saw and I also could have just about written your response for you ... so predictable//
I do not dispute what you saw – just your willingness to assume that what you saw represents the entire Muslim culture in terms of the way husbands and sons treat their wives and mothers.
You may think my post is predictable, but my example is equally as valid as yours – except it would not be a typical example of the way western men and women interact.
Your argument is flawed, I am merely pointing that out. Feel free to argue the point if you wish, but accusing me of predictability is simply dodging the point.
I will have to pick this up again tomorrow.
Sweet dreams …
I do not dispute what you saw – just your willingness to assume that what you saw represents the entire Muslim culture in terms of the way husbands and sons treat their wives and mothers.
You may think my post is predictable, but my example is equally as valid as yours – except it would not be a typical example of the way western men and women interact.
Your argument is flawed, I am merely pointing that out. Feel free to argue the point if you wish, but accusing me of predictability is simply dodging the point.
I will have to pick this up again tomorrow.
Sweet dreams …
Anyone who has an opposing argument to yours has a flawed argument, I think over the years that has become crystal clear.
I have read many times that the burka is a symbol of oppression not from Christians or white people but from Muslim women ( many of whom also think the same of other Islamic head attire) The incident I mentioned was the first time I had seen the oppression in action and quite frankly I thought it was sickening to observe.
I have read many times that the burka is a symbol of oppression not from Christians or white people but from Muslim women ( many of whom also think the same of other Islamic head attire) The incident I mentioned was the first time I had seen the oppression in action and quite frankly I thought it was sickening to observe.
-- answer removed --
This is not good news for those Muslim women who wish to go down to the beach wearing a burkini.
Although they don't realise it the ban protected them from causing public disorder to break out.
Some will see it as yet another triumph for the Muslim faith, yes it will be those who attack the burkini clad females who will then be breaking the law, but when have the French ever bothered about that?
*** Ange-Pierre Vivoni, mayor of the Corsican town of Sisco, claimed burkinis had sparked clashes between Muslim bathers and locals. He said: ‘Here the tension is very, very, very strong and I won't withdraw
it.’ ***
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*** A tribunal in the Riviera city had on Monday ruled a burkini ban in the nearby town of Villeneuve-Loubet was ‘necessary, appropriate and proportionate' to prevent public disorder. ***
Although they don't realise it the ban protected them from causing public disorder to break out.
Some will see it as yet another triumph for the Muslim faith, yes it will be those who attack the burkini clad females who will then be breaking the law, but when have the French ever bothered about that?
*** Ange-Pierre Vivoni, mayor of the Corsican town of Sisco, claimed burkinis had sparked clashes between Muslim bathers and locals. He said: ‘Here the tension is very, very, very strong and I won't withdraw
it.’ ***
-------------------------------------------------
*** A tribunal in the Riviera city had on Monday ruled a burkini ban in the nearby town of Villeneuve-Loubet was ‘necessary, appropriate and proportionate' to prevent public disorder. ***
Talbot - //Anyone who has an opposing argument to yours has a flawed argument, I think over the years that has become crystal clear. //
That is neither true, nor something I say simply because a view is different from mine.
You have reached a conclusion based on a single observation. I believe it to be illogical, and I have given you an equal scenario to illustrate why your conclusion is invalid.
If you want to snipe at me, then fine, but I would rather you debated the point - if you have anything to say further.
I have read many times that the burka is a symbol of oppression not from Christians or white people but from Muslim women ( many of whom also think the same of other Islamic head attire) //
I have read many times that there is a Santa Claus - it doesn't mean that simply because I have read it a few times, it is a fact, and I will accept it without challenge.
//The incident I mentioned was the first time I had seen the oppression in action and quite frankly I thought it was sickening to observe. //
Again, I am not disputing what you saw - my argument is with your assumption that what you saw, measured against your western mind set is 'oppression', and that it represents the situation for all Muslim women.
All I am saying is that one situation without any explanation does not constitute an entire cultural outlook - simply that I question the notion of 'oppression' based on seeing this one situation.
We can agree to differ, but just as you are entitled to forward your thoughts and conclusions, so I am entitled to challenge them.
That is neither true, nor something I say simply because a view is different from mine.
You have reached a conclusion based on a single observation. I believe it to be illogical, and I have given you an equal scenario to illustrate why your conclusion is invalid.
If you want to snipe at me, then fine, but I would rather you debated the point - if you have anything to say further.
I have read many times that the burka is a symbol of oppression not from Christians or white people but from Muslim women ( many of whom also think the same of other Islamic head attire) //
I have read many times that there is a Santa Claus - it doesn't mean that simply because I have read it a few times, it is a fact, and I will accept it without challenge.
//The incident I mentioned was the first time I had seen the oppression in action and quite frankly I thought it was sickening to observe. //
Again, I am not disputing what you saw - my argument is with your assumption that what you saw, measured against your western mind set is 'oppression', and that it represents the situation for all Muslim women.
All I am saying is that one situation without any explanation does not constitute an entire cultural outlook - simply that I question the notion of 'oppression' based on seeing this one situation.
We can agree to differ, but just as you are entitled to forward your thoughts and conclusions, so I am entitled to challenge them.
My friend was conscious about her weight so always wore a T shirt and leggings on the beach and in the sea. Would she have been told to take her clothes off?
Would Nigella have been told to take off her burkini?
It seems to be very prejudiced to target certain women and order them to take clothes off.
Would Nigella have been told to take off her burkini?
It seems to be very prejudiced to target certain women and order them to take clothes off.
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