Do Lbour Have Any Idea On How To Negotiate?

[youngmafbog]

I would love to be selling this man a load of second hanb motors.

What a spanner.

http://news.sky.com/story/labour-show-us-brexit-plan-before-article-50-trigger-10648863

[mushroom25]

if last June's referendum vote question had been:-

we want you to vote on a point of policy but in order to reserve our rights in any negotiation we can't tell you what it is; please just vote "yes" or "no"

how would you have voted?

[youngmafbog]

Out.

So you think it is a good idea going to the EU when they know our hand?

Will the EU be telling us their plan?

[jim360]

I think the EU has made clear its position a few times, ie preservation of the various freedoms (eg of movement) is vital in order to retain single market access.

It's clear that people who have such a strong ideological opposition to EU membership won't give two hoots what the government's negotiating position is. I think it's safe to say that such people are a minority of Leave supporters, let alone a minority of the UK population as a whole. I don't think it's unreasonable to know what it is the UK government has in mind, either as a starting point or as a red line. And if that *** up our negotiating position, then arguably they weren't very good starting points to begin with.

[mushroom25]

// Out //

you've assumed you know what the question is, in my hypothetical example; the question is hidden behind a need for privacy, remember. is your answer still out? how do you know?

[Gromit]

You are mixing up the process of Brexit, with what happens later, they are two different things.
We plan for what kind of result from Brexit we want, and then implement it. Leaving is not negotiable, it is a right. What we do after Article 50 has been invoked is negotiable.
The line that everything has to be top secret so has not to harm future deals is utter claptrap. People we are dealing with need to know our position at the start.
Unfortunately, the Government is prepared to tell Nissan and their like what our future plans are, but they will not tell you or I.
Mrs May, quite irresponsibly, is trying to gag parliament, and keep the public in the dark as long as possible, because she knows that our final brexit is unlikely to please anybody, on either side of the debate. The leavers will not get everything they want, and will be the most vocal about it.

[EDDIE51]

Looks 100% correct to me!
What no one, including the government, seems to realise is that once we trigger A50 the EU council meet WITHOUT THE UK BEING REPRESENTED!!! and decide on what exit offer we will be made. We have no part in it. Once they have made the offer we accept it (see below) , leave with no agreement, or cancel 'Brexit' and stay.
Some of the smaller matters can then negotiated but the basic principles can not! So if the EU say 'freedom of movement' is a basic condition (which is very near certain) there can be no negotiation on that, it's take it or leave it!

[cassa333]

In answer to the op question. NO? But I have pretty that opinion of most parliamentarians.

What happens if remain red lines are at odds with leave red lines?

Remain want continued access to the single market (presumable in pretty much the way it is now).

Leave want to end free movement of workers and to control our own borders.

The EU says there cannot be free access to the single market without free movement. Therefore someone's red line will not be met.

Who will win in this tug on the red line?

By the way does anyone know what other red lines are for getting out for either remainers or bretixers?

[youngmafbog]

So you would go to buy a car and tell the salesman how you are going to negotiate first would you?

Article 50 should be triggered, then negotiations should take place. Once a potential agreement has been reached, then yes I agree that Parliament should have a say. As I have said before my preference would be for a committee (but they would have to keep trap shut or be kicked off) of remainers and cross party for the negotiations. As for Nissan I totally disagree with telling them anything(If that is what she has done which i find hard to believe since she does not know the EU stance yet).

The problem is the Remainers are using this as an excuse to derail the Exit.

Mush, I'm sorry I'm being a bit slow today you will have to spell it out as i dont get it yet.

[youngmafbog]

Err Eddie, did you really think the EU would have the UK round the table when they are planning the future of the EU?

[EDDIE51]

^ Just telling it like it is! I constantly hear people talking about
'Our Exit negotiations' when the truth is we will not be involved until after the exit conditions have been set out. Then we can ONLY negotiate on those parts that have NOT been 'Red Lined' as non negotiable .

[Gromit]

YMB,
Parliament, and the people do not need to know detailed plans about our negotiating tactics with every country we plan to trade with. They just want a broad outline of what we want and when.

For example, this Plan A
1. We want to fully leave by 31st December 2019.
2. We want to negotiate new trade deals with all EU members individually.
3. We don't want to join the single European market.

Stating any of that would not undermine any trade deals we need to negotiate, in fact, having a published deadline usually forces things to happen by then.

[mikey4444]

YMB...the High Court ruling last week means that Parliament must trigger A50, not Mrs May. It has been explained ad nauseum for days now.

So as soon as Mrs May accepts this, and doesn't waste public time and money making an appeal, we can get on with things.

[Gromit]

The second hand motors analogy does not work. Dealers do published details of the deal beforehand to entice the buyer. And buyers Know the maximum they want to give away. But Brexit isn't like buying a car anyway.

[Gromit]

Mikey,
The due process is that the Government have right of appeal over a High Court ruling, so they will follow the process and appeal.

Parliament will not invoke article 50, the Government of the day will. Parliament will vote to approve invoking, they will not invoke it themselves.

[EDDIE51]

^^ The biggest problem by far is that an exit from the EU has never happened. It is all made up as we go along. I have posted the details that are known several times. ie The EU council meet without the departing state and set out the conditions of exit.

[EDDIE51]

Gromit Yes, the government will appeal but they MUST know that an appeal is useless unless the government lawyers can come up with new and valid reasons the original ruling was wrong. (VERY unlikely) It is for this reason that I believe the entire thing right from when the referendum gave the 'wrong' choice is a set up. All this delay and legal argument was planned so that the government can turn round in a few years and say ' ''We tried our best to get out but have failed'' then come up with a 'stay' plan.
I said from the beginning that Theresa May was being set up to fail, so far everything looks as though I was correct.

[youngmafbog]

Mickey, I'm not talking about Article 50 other than some demanding to know the brexit plan before triggering.

If it is an outline plan like Gromit suggests then I dont see an issue. But I think you will find that many touting this want a very detailed plan of exactly what is being negotiated.

And Gromit, second hand car dealers do not publish their details.

[Quizmonster]

"So you would go to buy a car and tell the salesman how you are going to negotiate first would you?" (YMB)
I've certainly never gone to buy a car, new or second hand, with a 'negotiating plan' in mind. Every car-buyer surely knows exactly...
(a) what his maximum spend is going to be and
(b) how much approximately the salesman is likely to be prepared to deduct from the price on the windscreen/in the sales literature.
All that has to be established by discussion is whereabouts, roughly in the middle, you're both prepared to settle. Where does "telling the salesman how you are going to negotiate" come into this? He knows as well as you do!

[Old_Geezer]

Showing our hand is a common remainer demand, not just Labour.

The EU is not demanding retension of freedoms but of their unacceptable impositions, which they must know is a non-starter. Just threatening to be tough to try to avoid REAL exit.

[cassa333]

Yes but what happens when two red lines are not compatible?