Pupils To Sit Times Tables Check From 2019

[mikey4444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39053483

Am I to understand, from this astonishing news, that children are NOT tested on their times tables now ?

[ummmm]

I said on another thread a while back. Take your kids to the pub and teach them how to play darts. It's a game of adding up and taking away.

[jim360]

Perhaps, but when the government talks about testing times tables as a requirement (that anyway already existed) it follows that either (a) it treats times tables as a metric of mathematical ability or (b) it thinks enough people do that they'd care about the test results. And, either way, one end only look at the OP and his follow-up posts to see that he places a great deal of import on them.

[Cloverjo]

I work in an amusement arcade, and am shocked by customers' inability to add, subtract, multiply and divide.

There was a guy who came in with his three kids to spend their redemption vouchers on prizes. He wanted them all to have the same amount so he added up his vouchers and divided by three. I did the same and told him how much each child had. He disagreed because the calculator on his phone told him a different answer. He showed me the phone as 'proof' that his was right.
Of course, he'd put it in like this: a + b + c / 3. I tried to explain how it was wrong, but he didn't have a clue. Luckily one of his children did so I avoided being screamed at.

[ichkeria]

I agree Jim.
My arithmetic is good but no way am I a mathematician.
The focus at our school is on trying to break down the mental block some (a lot of?) children have with "maths"
From what I've seen they are learning a lot and what is more doing it in a far more interesting way than I ever did.

I'd say that, by the way, generally, quizzes are a poor guide to educational levels and intelligence. I've worked with very clever people who struggle to answer some basic GK questions: on the other hand a quiz team I am in has people who are good on facts, but are not, to be honest, what I would call fantastically intelligent, They struggle, in fact, with questions where the answer can be worked out, rather than done by recall.

[naomi24]

Jim, I don’t understand where your argument is coming from. We’re not talking advanced mathematics, but basic skills – which are, I think, very important. Learning times tables by rote gives a child a useful ability for life and I see nothing wrong in that.

[jim360]

I guess you could say it's coming from my own experiences. Where else?

[fiction-factory]

Knowing times tables does gives a child a useful ability for life but it's only a starting point- it's far better that they can see the patterns and can use the information to work out real life problems involving larger numbers and decimals and know which operations to perform in which order

[naomi24]

fiction-factory, they do that too. Learning one does not preclude learning and understanding the other.

[jno]

for most people it isn't a useful ability. They can do it just as quickly with a calculator.

[zebo]

Cloverjo, your customer must have been a DM reader, there are regular 'features' which hinge on BODMAS and an amazing number of people who don't accept a universally accepted set of rules.

[jno]

ummmm, teaching them to play cribbage is good. Being stabbed with a match is less painful than with a dart, too.

[SnookerPlayer]

I won a prize at school yonks ago for reciting 6,7 and 8 times tables the fastest. Must have been about 7.

[naomi24]

jno, much easier to know the answer without thinking about it.

[ichkeria]

"for most people it isn't a useful ability. They can do it just as quickly with a calculator. "

If you mean "multiply two single digit numbers together (or two numbers

[ichkeria]

I'm sorry I will start that again, not realising that typing the "less than" sign was going to zap the rest of my post (whoever's idea it was to allow that needs a talking to :- ) )
"for most people it isn't a useful ability. They can do it just as quickly with a calculator. "

If you mean "multiply two single digit numbers together (or two numbers less than 13) " then that probably isn't true. By the time you've got your calculator out ...

And as clover's example illustrates, blindly poking a few calculator buttons is often not the answer

[fiction-factory]

fiction-factory, they do that too. Learning one does not preclude learning and understanding the other.

Thanks for the insight naomi- I'll remember that one and let my colleagues know.

Maybe you are looking for a point of disagreement that isn't there. I agree with rote learning of tables at an early age. Rote learning only gets you so far though. At some point you need to understand what lies behind it and be able to apply those times table facts. We probably agree on that too.

[naomi24]

fiction-factory, // I agree with rote learning of tables at an early age.//

That wasn't the impression I gained from your posts, probably because, like Jim, you took the conversation beyond learning times tables. We agree then. Jolly good.

[jim360]

I think for myself the problem is in assessing it so formally. If you are going to insist on checking times tables then presumably it follows that "failing" the relevant test will come with consequences. Remedial learning, perhaps? Will the times table test be seen as important enough to stand alongside other results? What if you pass one but fail the other?

If we are restricting ourselves to talking only about times tables then -- well anyway I don't agree with that because maths isn't something that can be regarded as several disjoint subjects -- but then the problem I have is in the heavy emphasis being placed on it. As we've established there hasn't ever been a point when times tables weren't taught. This extra test adds nothing to the story.

[zebo]

Thank you ff for the Edexcel link, I've now spent an hour going through the Higher Paper, Mr Dyson and Miss Sheen sitting there looking very disapproving! The last q was a delight, product of gradients, reminds me of real teaching.

[mikey4444]

Thanks Ed !