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Shafted Or Liberated?
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“NJ, that's the most patronising and arrogant crap I've ever seen come from you.”
Oh well I suppose it’s had some impact, Jim. Please read the entire paragraph and not just the bits you carefully select. Most younger people I know who voted to remain did so because they had been told to be scared of the consequences of voting to leave. There was no thought or analysis, they just did as they were taught.
“Then there's the historically massive pension bill which today's under-employed and typically underpaid youth will have to spend their working lives paying for”
Then they should blame successive governments for peeing their older citizens’ contributions up the wall. I’ve paid for my State Pension (and a lot more besides) and I expect my contributions to be available when I need them. It’s scarcely my fault that this compulsory scheme has been run like a giant Ponzi scam and to say I should take the blame for younger people having to shell out is a little harsh to say the least.
“… stacked the property market massively and unnaturally against newcomers”
The property market has been “stacked against newcomers” because there are too many of them. You cannot add annually hundreds of thousands of people to the population and expect there to be empty property laying around pending their arrival. No proper forecast of population growth can be (or has been) made whilst 500m people have right of settlement because, incredible as it may seem, some of them may just take up that right as was witnessed with the EU's eastern expansion (when immigration from the new member nations was underestimated by at least 20-fold).
“..because younger people can't remember the 'glory days' before the EU where we had an unintelligible monetary system the rest of the world couldn't understand, hangings were socially acceptable and there were public information films warning about homosexuals.”
Changes to none of the things you mention have anything to do with the UK’s EU membership. Decimalisation took place in 1971, hangings were abolished in 1965 and homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967. The UK joined the EU in 1972.
I notice the Good Doctor Cable went further with his continued demonisation of those who voted to leave. Apparently they are "Brexit Jihadis". I imagine he believes that if he rubbishes them enough the case for leaving will be trashed. As I said - a silly old git.
Oh well I suppose it’s had some impact, Jim. Please read the entire paragraph and not just the bits you carefully select. Most younger people I know who voted to remain did so because they had been told to be scared of the consequences of voting to leave. There was no thought or analysis, they just did as they were taught.
“Then there's the historically massive pension bill which today's under-employed and typically underpaid youth will have to spend their working lives paying for”
Then they should blame successive governments for peeing their older citizens’ contributions up the wall. I’ve paid for my State Pension (and a lot more besides) and I expect my contributions to be available when I need them. It’s scarcely my fault that this compulsory scheme has been run like a giant Ponzi scam and to say I should take the blame for younger people having to shell out is a little harsh to say the least.
“… stacked the property market massively and unnaturally against newcomers”
The property market has been “stacked against newcomers” because there are too many of them. You cannot add annually hundreds of thousands of people to the population and expect there to be empty property laying around pending their arrival. No proper forecast of population growth can be (or has been) made whilst 500m people have right of settlement because, incredible as it may seem, some of them may just take up that right as was witnessed with the EU's eastern expansion (when immigration from the new member nations was underestimated by at least 20-fold).
“..because younger people can't remember the 'glory days' before the EU where we had an unintelligible monetary system the rest of the world couldn't understand, hangings were socially acceptable and there were public information films warning about homosexuals.”
Changes to none of the things you mention have anything to do with the UK’s EU membership. Decimalisation took place in 1971, hangings were abolished in 1965 and homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967. The UK joined the EU in 1972.
I notice the Good Doctor Cable went further with his continued demonisation of those who voted to leave. Apparently they are "Brexit Jihadis". I imagine he believes that if he rubbishes them enough the case for leaving will be trashed. As I said - a silly old git.
"Most younger people I know who voted to remain did so because they had been told to be scared of the consequences of voting to leave. There was no thought or analysis, they just did as they were taught."
Until you freed their minds and, coincidentally, this led to them agreeing with you? Figures.
Also, how about we not go down the "all the people I know did this thing therefore everyone must have thought in exactly the same way" biased sample route? Most people I know (a) voted to Remain, and (b) didn't do so blindly, but that proves nothing because "most people I know" is a (very) narrow group of people who have rather a lot in common and aren't a fair reflection of society. Please think of the entire "Remain" vote, and not just the bits of it you carefully select...
We won't ever know exactly who voted for what in any election, but there's plenty of reason to suspect that the vote to Remain or Leave was very strongly correlated to a lot of other divisions in society; age, educational background, where in the UK you lived, etc etc. It bothers me that each time one of these divides comes up, it tends to be dismissed with something snappy and offensive, like "young people are too brainwashed", "older people are too selfish", "the educated are just some sort of liberal wishy-washy elite", "Scotland shouldn't be part of the UK anyway", "of course thick people voted Leave", and on and on and on. It's probably vain to hope that it'll stop because, well, it's coming from both sides and perhaps in part just reflects the passion people had for their position in the first place -- and dissent must be quashed these days it seems anyway -- but maybe if I moan about it enough at least it'll make me feel better.
Still, NJ, whatever you think of Remain voters as a whole, "most people I know did X" arguments are flawed in such an obvious way and I would have expected you to know this. So why you keep bringing it up I don't entirely understand.
Until you freed their minds and, coincidentally, this led to them agreeing with you? Figures.
Also, how about we not go down the "all the people I know did this thing therefore everyone must have thought in exactly the same way" biased sample route? Most people I know (a) voted to Remain, and (b) didn't do so blindly, but that proves nothing because "most people I know" is a (very) narrow group of people who have rather a lot in common and aren't a fair reflection of society. Please think of the entire "Remain" vote, and not just the bits of it you carefully select...
We won't ever know exactly who voted for what in any election, but there's plenty of reason to suspect that the vote to Remain or Leave was very strongly correlated to a lot of other divisions in society; age, educational background, where in the UK you lived, etc etc. It bothers me that each time one of these divides comes up, it tends to be dismissed with something snappy and offensive, like "young people are too brainwashed", "older people are too selfish", "the educated are just some sort of liberal wishy-washy elite", "Scotland shouldn't be part of the UK anyway", "of course thick people voted Leave", and on and on and on. It's probably vain to hope that it'll stop because, well, it's coming from both sides and perhaps in part just reflects the passion people had for their position in the first place -- and dissent must be quashed these days it seems anyway -- but maybe if I moan about it enough at least it'll make me feel better.
Still, NJ, whatever you think of Remain voters as a whole, "most people I know did X" arguments are flawed in such an obvious way and I would have expected you to know this. So why you keep bringing it up I don't entirely understand.
//It’s scarcely my fault that this compulsory scheme has been run like a giant Ponzi scam and to say I should take the blame for younger people having to shell out is a little harsh to say the least. //
Well, I was talking about your generation rather than you personally. From the point of view of younger people, it is their parents' generation who voted in successive governments who have left the pension system in such a dismal state. I have no doubt that you expect yours to be available (everyone does). Or that it will be. I just think it will come at much more intensive rates of tax for those currently entering the workforce, who will be simultaneously squeezed by increasing rents and be incapable of buying homes through no fault of their own.
Newcomers would not be a problem if the housing market functioned like an actual market, where supply rose to meet demand. But it doesn't. 30+ years of governments have wilfully pursued policies to massively inflate house prices and benefit people who already own homes. Unless it crashes, that's kind of a done deal.
Well, I was talking about your generation rather than you personally. From the point of view of younger people, it is their parents' generation who voted in successive governments who have left the pension system in such a dismal state. I have no doubt that you expect yours to be available (everyone does). Or that it will be. I just think it will come at much more intensive rates of tax for those currently entering the workforce, who will be simultaneously squeezed by increasing rents and be incapable of buying homes through no fault of their own.
Newcomers would not be a problem if the housing market functioned like an actual market, where supply rose to meet demand. But it doesn't. 30+ years of governments have wilfully pursued policies to massively inflate house prices and benefit people who already own homes. Unless it crashes, that's kind of a done deal.
// Khandro at 08:14, a good point - but there are many who, since it doesn't support their own opinions, wouldn't read it anyway.//
seems rather a harsh judgement on your fellow ABers Nigh
surely surely no one would be so prejudiced on this site ?
and here is YMB on a similar subject:
// Jim, any chance you could do a little precis of your rants, lifes too short to read that lot. //
oh! oh! I see what you mean.....
and YMB is one of those awful rabid jihadi brexiters isnt he ?
too busy brexiting or something
I dont usually read him - I mean I doubt if he reads alot of what he writes himself [joke joke I do ! I read every eentsiest syllable he writes and read mark and digest the meaning]
seems rather a harsh judgement on your fellow ABers Nigh
surely surely no one would be so prejudiced on this site ?
and here is YMB on a similar subject:
// Jim, any chance you could do a little precis of your rants, lifes too short to read that lot. //
oh! oh! I see what you mean.....
and YMB is one of those awful rabid jihadi brexiters isnt he ?
too busy brexiting or something
I dont usually read him - I mean I doubt if he reads alot of what he writes himself [joke joke I do ! I read every eentsiest syllable he writes and read mark and digest the meaning]
“…it is their parents' generation who voted in successive governments who have left the pension system in such a dismal state.”
And their choices were what, exactly? I’ll tell you – a government which would have carried on and left things exactly as they were or a government which would have left things exactly as they were and carried on. The State pension scheme is a mess because it is not run as a pension scheme (i.e. with a proper relationship between contributions made and benefits received). It is run as an extension to the State benefits system with little or no such relationship (or if anything the inverse). No government of any persuasion will alter that so we’re stuck with it. The problem is that those who have funded their State pensions fully (like me) get tarred with the same brush as those who have not even though I have probably made sufficient contributions for three or four “pensioners”.
“Newcomers would not be a problem if the housing market functioned like an actual market, where supply rose to meet demand.”
It is impossible for the market to meet demand when numbers requiring housing are increasing so profoundly and so rapidly. Houses and flats cannot be built in ten minutes but people demanding them arrive every ten minutes.
And their choices were what, exactly? I’ll tell you – a government which would have carried on and left things exactly as they were or a government which would have left things exactly as they were and carried on. The State pension scheme is a mess because it is not run as a pension scheme (i.e. with a proper relationship between contributions made and benefits received). It is run as an extension to the State benefits system with little or no such relationship (or if anything the inverse). No government of any persuasion will alter that so we’re stuck with it. The problem is that those who have funded their State pensions fully (like me) get tarred with the same brush as those who have not even though I have probably made sufficient contributions for three or four “pensioners”.
“Newcomers would not be a problem if the housing market functioned like an actual market, where supply rose to meet demand.”
It is impossible for the market to meet demand when numbers requiring housing are increasing so profoundly and so rapidly. Houses and flats cannot be built in ten minutes but people demanding them arrive every ten minutes.
"Might some of those people arriving every ten mins not work in the care system ?"
They might do, Mikey, but where are they going to live? As well as that, as Khandro has touched on and incredible as it may seem, the young people now working in the care industry (which apparently we cannot run without importing vast numbers of migrants) will eventually get old themselves. I know! We can being in some more migrants to look after them. But hang on! They will also get old and need care! I know.....
It seems a little over optimistic to think that the young people coming here now will do a few years on minimum wage caring for old people then return to Poland or Bulgaria or wherever (from which all the youngsters will have decamped to the west) to see out their dotage.
As I keep saying whenever this issue is raised, the UK needs to develop a model which does not depend on huge numbers of people having to be imported. It is completely unsustainable in the long term and in some areas is reaching that situation now. To simply continue to say "we must have huge numbers of migrants because everybody is getting old and we cannot cope without them" is symptoms of the lunatics running the asylum.
They might do, Mikey, but where are they going to live? As well as that, as Khandro has touched on and incredible as it may seem, the young people now working in the care industry (which apparently we cannot run without importing vast numbers of migrants) will eventually get old themselves. I know! We can being in some more migrants to look after them. But hang on! They will also get old and need care! I know.....
It seems a little over optimistic to think that the young people coming here now will do a few years on minimum wage caring for old people then return to Poland or Bulgaria or wherever (from which all the youngsters will have decamped to the west) to see out their dotage.
As I keep saying whenever this issue is raised, the UK needs to develop a model which does not depend on huge numbers of people having to be imported. It is completely unsustainable in the long term and in some areas is reaching that situation now. To simply continue to say "we must have huge numbers of migrants because everybody is getting old and we cannot cope without them" is symptoms of the lunatics running the asylum.
Not an insignificant number of these nurses and carers have health issues themselves and need treatment on the NHS;
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