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First Hurdle Cleared, Fairly Comfortably In The End.
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The Vichy British failed to halt democracy again. Thank you to the 7 Labour MPs who defied KJJ and voted with the government.
The Vichy British failed to halt democracy again. Thank you to the 7 Labour MPs who defied KJJ and voted with the government.
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I can't say I know why I am posting this, but just to be clear: Democracy, in terms of honouring the referendum, was absolutely not an issue here. That was achieved with the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act from March 2017, that allowed May the permission she needed to give notice under Article 50 of the TEU. From that point on, the referendum result was respected and the rest is detail. Important detail, but detail.
If this Bill had not passed (and it still might not, of course) then that does not change a thing about honouring the principles of the 2016 referendum. It would have made the government's practical job a lot harder, or they would have very quickly had to prepare another Bill granting broadly similar powers. But it wouldn't have stopped us leaving.
So all this talk of "halting democracy" by voting against the bill is utter nonsense. Voting against it was voting against the procedural point of how many unchecked powers the government should have to repair the legislation affected by Withdrawal -- not whether Withdrawal would happen.
If this Bill had not passed (and it still might not, of course) then that does not change a thing about honouring the principles of the 2016 referendum. It would have made the government's practical job a lot harder, or they would have very quickly had to prepare another Bill granting broadly similar powers. But it wouldn't have stopped us leaving.
So all this talk of "halting democracy" by voting against the bill is utter nonsense. Voting against it was voting against the procedural point of how many unchecked powers the government should have to repair the legislation affected by Withdrawal -- not whether Withdrawal would happen.
I can't say I want to get into a debate over whether or not the Bill in its current form should have passed. I did try reading the thing and couldn't tell at all whether it was an "unprecedented power grab" or just the action that may be required to make the changes as fast as will be needed.
But what bothers me is that Brexit is now a topic that, for the winners, seems to warrant no debate at all. No discussion over the procedure, no discussion over the final objectives, no discussion over the negotiating stance -- and not instantly adopting the government's position unconditionally is apparently comparable to the highest levels of treachery and treason. If it were just confined to AB then I wouldn't see a problem -- there are always people who seem to think that Democracy is about accepting that there's a winner, rather than accepting that the losers still have a job to do -- but that same attitude carries right to the top all of a sudden, May bitching about how time and time again the opposition were blocking her every move -- except (a) they weren't, as not a single piece of Brexit-related legislation was ever blocked, and (b) that's their literal job.
As I see it, the debate about whether or not we *will* be leaving the EU in a little under two years' time is over. We are. The debate over whether or not we *should* is not, and never will be. The debate over what leaving will mean, what deals and concessions both sides should make, and how Brexit is to be achieved, is also ongoing. Voting against this Bill is not therefore a slap in the face of democracy, but a vital part of it.
But what bothers me is that Brexit is now a topic that, for the winners, seems to warrant no debate at all. No discussion over the procedure, no discussion over the final objectives, no discussion over the negotiating stance -- and not instantly adopting the government's position unconditionally is apparently comparable to the highest levels of treachery and treason. If it were just confined to AB then I wouldn't see a problem -- there are always people who seem to think that Democracy is about accepting that there's a winner, rather than accepting that the losers still have a job to do -- but that same attitude carries right to the top all of a sudden, May bitching about how time and time again the opposition were blocking her every move -- except (a) they weren't, as not a single piece of Brexit-related legislation was ever blocked, and (b) that's their literal job.
As I see it, the debate about whether or not we *will* be leaving the EU in a little under two years' time is over. We are. The debate over whether or not we *should* is not, and never will be. The debate over what leaving will mean, what deals and concessions both sides should make, and how Brexit is to be achieved, is also ongoing. Voting against this Bill is not therefore a slap in the face of democracy, but a vital part of it.
'The government plans to enact its "corrections" to the statute book using what are known as Henry VIII powers, after the Statute of Proclamations 1539 which gave him the power to legislate by proclamation.
Given that this will not involve the usual Parliamentary scrutiny process, opposition parties have protested, with Labour claiming ministers were being handed "sweeping powers" to make hasty, ill thought-out legislation.' Is that democracy in action?
TTT do you think the proposed Bill is fine in every detail and should not be amended in any way?
Given that this will not involve the usual Parliamentary scrutiny process, opposition parties have protested, with Labour claiming ministers were being handed "sweeping powers" to make hasty, ill thought-out legislation.' Is that democracy in action?
TTT do you think the proposed Bill is fine in every detail and should not be amended in any way?
TCL, it's not possible to nail down every variant of the detail of the bill. The H8 powers are limited to 2 years only and are intended so that the government can tweak legislation as necessary without a debilitating process. Yes I understand the concerns and I am uneasy about giving the government this kind of power but it's temporary and necessary under the circumstances.
Well it's nice to see that you can look on this bill with uneasiness. I can sympathise with the idea that after all the "sweeping powers" are necessary -- although obviously the difference is that I wish they weren't necessary in the first place -- and it also stands to reason that if Parliament is going to pass a Bill that strips it of so much power (however temporarily) then it shouldn't just do so without proper scrutiny.
That's the thing that bothers me. Naomi is no doubt correct that some people are using the principle of proper scrutiny to mask their desire to stop Brexit at any cost, but the existence of such people doesn't undermine the need for such scrutiny. It bothers me that, for some, simply slapping the word "Brexit" onto a Bill renders it immune to all criticism except from "traitors", or whatever your next euphemism is (can I recommend "Quisling" for your next post on this, TTT? Especially if a discussion focuses on the Norway option.).
That's the thing that bothers me. Naomi is no doubt correct that some people are using the principle of proper scrutiny to mask their desire to stop Brexit at any cost, but the existence of such people doesn't undermine the need for such scrutiny. It bothers me that, for some, simply slapping the word "Brexit" onto a Bill renders it immune to all criticism except from "traitors", or whatever your next euphemism is (can I recommend "Quisling" for your next post on this, TTT? Especially if a discussion focuses on the Norway option.).
If the 'sweeping powers to change legislation' were a permanent fixture I would not be happy with it either. But a two year grace to enable smooth transitioning to independence I don't see as a problem.
One devolved power in particular I think is just peed off that they won't have the opportunity to get in on the act for a power grab for themselves. I do rather think they see it that way because that is what they want to do not because they fear it will happen by someone else and Opposition parties think they won't get a look in.
And those that are looking to the long term stability of the country with as smooth an exit as possible are pragmatic and practical enough to know what is happening and why.
One devolved power in particular I think is just peed off that they won't have the opportunity to get in on the act for a power grab for themselves. I do rather think they see it that way because that is what they want to do not because they fear it will happen by someone else and Opposition parties think they won't get a look in.
And those that are looking to the long term stability of the country with as smooth an exit as possible are pragmatic and practical enough to know what is happening and why.
Even if we give the nays the benefit of the doubt, surely all can see we have exceptional circumstances and one needs to get the job done and revisit if and where necessary when all's on the statute book. Sometimes there isn't the luxury of time to go around debating and amending more minor concerns. Get the working version in then patch it with all the enhancements and/or bug fixes later.
The Good Doctor Cable was on the wireless this morning. His hope is that the legislation gets so bogged down in amendments and procedural issues that eventually people will say "it's not worth the effort" and Brexit will be called off. But, of course, he would not like to see the result of the referendum jeopardised.
Personally I see this Bill as simplicity itself. All EU legislation gets pasted into UK law so as to ensure continuity, and it can be ditched or retained as required afterwards.
Personally I see this Bill as simplicity itself. All EU legislation gets pasted into UK law so as to ensure continuity, and it can be ditched or retained as required afterwards.
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