Should Gender Be Included In The Census?

[naomi24]

//The Office for National Statistics (ONS) has undertaken research as to whether the 2021 census should ask questions about people’s gender identity as well as their biological sex.
This follows protests that asking about people’s gender is discriminatory.

If the proposals go ahead, the change would leave the Government without accurate data on the number of men and women officially living in the country.

An online self-completion survey found that 0.8 per cent of approximately 10,000 respondents had transgender identities and that around half of this population – or 40 individuals – had undergone gender reassignment surgery.//

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/census-gender-transgender-non-binary-concerns-women-written-out-of-existence-germaine-greer-a7988991.html

I’ve never considered myself to be a feminist particularly, but I’m with them on this one. It seems the sensibilities of a very few are taking precedence over common sense. What say you?

[Mamyalynne]

Clickable link here Mikey, but you're right.

https://census.ukdataservice.ac.uk/media/50966/2011_england_household.pdf

Scroll down.

[DTCwordfan]

What is your sex ?

Male
Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Female
Deviant

What sex do you feel - Answer - don't be so personal.

[murraymints]

if one can be Klingon by religion it seems anything goes on the census !

[mikey4444]

The next Census is 2021. I can't see that any harm would be done by altering the gender question and including a 3rd option.

And I haven't a clue where "feminism" comes into this debate ?

[naomi24]

Mikey, // I haven't a clue where "feminism" comes into this debate ? //

Now how can I put this? Some men, for whatever reason, prefer to be considered women. So.... if their wishes are conceded to, where does that leave real women?

[jim360]

Presumably, it leaves them in the same place they were to start with, does it not?

[naomi24]

No, it doesn't.

[jim360]

I'm not meaning to be flippant exactly, as it's a question I've pondered for some time, one way or another. But in the long run I don't see why women need to view transgender people as in any sense threatening -- rather like how extending the definition of marriage to allow for same-sex couples doesn't in any sense devalue a heterosexual marriage, extending the definition of "woman" to include transgender people doesn't devalue the identities of "cisgender" women.

[mikey4444]

It works both ways.....Some women, for whatever reason, prefer to be considered men.

[naomi24]

Jim, I’m not sure ‘threatening’ is the right word, but as Germaine Greer says, 'We keep arguing that women have won everything they need to win. They haven’t even won the right to exist’. I think she means her gender shouldn’t be hijacked – and I agree with her.

I had to look up “cisgender" only to find it means women who are born female and identify as women – in other words just ordinary women. Good grief! I’m convinced the world’s going potty!

[jno]

quite so, jim, the preciousness seems to go in the other direction: I'm part of a proper heterosexual marriage and this status will be devalued if those horrid gays can claim they're married too.

"Real" women will remain women even if some transgender ones say they're women too. Nobody will have been abolished.

[naomi24]

You won't be abolished, jno ... but you might be regarded with a smidgeon of curiosity. ;o)

[jim360]

I was wondering if you were going to quote Greer at some point, Naomi.

I'll leave it there. It's a "debate" that I don't overly see a point in having since we'll never agree on any aspect of it, ever.

[Mamyalynne]

I've always been a curiosity, it keeps life fresh and interesting - makes no real difference then, :-)

[naomi24]

Jim, //I was wondering if you were going to quote Greer at some point, Naomi. //

The quote comes from the Independent article.

[jim360]

Yes, and the Independent article quoted Germaine Greer.

I'm not insensitive to the debate, and as I say I've pondered it for some time, for various reasons. I just happen to disagree strongly with what Greer, and others who would agree with her, are saying.

[naomi24]

Jim, //Yes, and the Independent article quoted Germaine Greer. //

That's what I said.

//I just happen to disagree strongly with what Greer, and others who would agree with her, are saying. //

Of course you do, but you're not seeing it from their angle.

[jim360]

Or they aren't seeing it from mine :P

This is partly a generational thing. As someone who is not a feminist, apparently, you might not have read too much into it, I don't know -- but there is some competition between Greer's generation of feminists and the more recent, "third wave" feminism, in terms of how much or how little acceptance of transgender people, particularly transwomen, there should be. Loosely speaking, the older feminists seem to hate the concept, and the more recent feminists have literally no problem with it whatsoever, although that's a gross oversimplification probably.

But anyway.

[pixie374]

I'm with you, naomi. There's very little I find offensive, but this trivialising is. I would go with male, female, transgender as options., if needed.

[naomi24]

Jim, I think you’re making some unwarranted assumptions there – but first “cisgender" and now "third wave feminism”. What the hell is that? Little wonder confusion reigns! Who invents all this rubbish?