ChatterBank0 min ago
Remembrance
You will have seen and possibly participated in the current AB poll about remembrance on November 11th. I just came across this article by Simon Jenkins, written 12 months ago, but going the rounds now, my view I will keep to myself for the moment, but what do you think of it?
https:/
https:/
Answers
His thesis is that we should forget and get on with our lives this means that what has happened in the past has no relevance to the present. Indeed those who forget history are not condemned to repeat it - but lead much more fulfilling lives. or -as Mauriac said - there is only one lesson in History - and that is there are no lessons from History ( paradox intended) I...
18:17 Fri 09th Nov 2018
Simon makes some very good points. What baffles me is the resurgence in the late 20th Century - I well remember the slow fading after the Forties and Fifties until the whole affair became almost completely absent from media (and to a large extent public) attention. Then along came Falklands and Thatcher and it all began to ramp up again until reaching last year's obsessive levels (this year is different, being the centenary). I cannot avoid thinking it is all an Establishment Initiative "pour encourager les autres". No doubt I will be vilified for such an opinion.
His thesis is that we should forget and get on with our lives
this means that what has happened in the past has no relevance to the present. Indeed those who forget history are not condemned to repeat it - but lead much more fulfilling lives. or -as Mauriac said - there is only one lesson in History - and that is there are no lessons from History ( paradox intended)
I would like examples of forgetting and consequent benefits - or remembering and resulting in chaos. There are none - possibly showing History is NOT an inductive science.
Instead we have an ignorant pre-teen wondering what the great War was ( or why is there a great hoo-ha about this great war of yours?) - but not showing that by his ignorance he is a better child.
We have examples of history being rewritten - we didnt win the 2WW someone else did ( failing to mention that America was a the great winner ) - but that doesnt support forgetting as a strategy.
We heard / read there was a dearth of interest in the Great War and then there was nt ( a dearth - there was a regrowth of interest ). So the course did NOT follow the usual course of memories fading and then forgetting. He ascribes this to an establishment plan put into effect by the Beeb. Some hope - the Beeb went thro an incredible marxist and anti-imperialist period in the 60s and 70s.
He doesnt like Holocaust memorials
and that is about it - I judge therefore he has a point of view but has failed to advance it / defend it. Good Luck to him. Did he have a deadline to fill at so many pence / column inch ? or was it an AOG manoeuvre of - just to argue, why dont we forget Remembrance Day? Perhaps we will never know
this means that what has happened in the past has no relevance to the present. Indeed those who forget history are not condemned to repeat it - but lead much more fulfilling lives. or -as Mauriac said - there is only one lesson in History - and that is there are no lessons from History ( paradox intended)
I would like examples of forgetting and consequent benefits - or remembering and resulting in chaos. There are none - possibly showing History is NOT an inductive science.
Instead we have an ignorant pre-teen wondering what the great War was ( or why is there a great hoo-ha about this great war of yours?) - but not showing that by his ignorance he is a better child.
We have examples of history being rewritten - we didnt win the 2WW someone else did ( failing to mention that America was a the great winner ) - but that doesnt support forgetting as a strategy.
We heard / read there was a dearth of interest in the Great War and then there was nt ( a dearth - there was a regrowth of interest ). So the course did NOT follow the usual course of memories fading and then forgetting. He ascribes this to an establishment plan put into effect by the Beeb. Some hope - the Beeb went thro an incredible marxist and anti-imperialist period in the 60s and 70s.
He doesnt like Holocaust memorials
and that is about it - I judge therefore he has a point of view but has failed to advance it / defend it. Good Luck to him. Did he have a deadline to fill at so many pence / column inch ? or was it an AOG manoeuvre of - just to argue, why dont we forget Remembrance Day? Perhaps we will never know
Canary writes:
//I well remember the slow fading after the Forties and Fifties until the whole affair became almost completely absent from media (and to a large extent public) attention.// well it clearly didnt fade from the memories of the combattants - but I remember the media sneering about it, in the usual marxist and anti-imperial manner. The Great War ( beeb tv 1964) was incredibly popular ( along with All Our Yesterdays with Brian Inglis). This made Max Hastings' reputation. A week ago he was re-writing that losing 700 000 men dead wasnt that much .....
//Then along came Falklands and Thatcher and it all began to ramp up again until reaching last year's obsessive levels (this year is different, being the centenary).// - well one followed the other but does that mean one caused the other ? well, the last case of smallpox in England was observed in 1976 ( I was a contact ) and after that Remembrance Days were more popular but I dont ascribe one to the other. Bliar was certain it should be forgotten and moved the commemoration to a Sunday - it was moved back not by demand whipped up by the media but by the people themselves. - a good example of the people "bucking their leaders"
//I cannot avoid thinking it is all an Establishment Initiative "pour encourager les autres".// This falls down on the media being tools of the Establishment. After a century of the marxist beeb, I just dont think so. Secondly - the idea of shooting someone to encourage the others ( Voltaire's maxim on the execution of Admiral Byng for losing Minorca 1706) - doesnt work. "Join up and we will shoot you" is not a good recruiting maxim. I could be wrong. The executions for desertion 1914 were very unpopular and were commuted later on. Men did NOT join up in 1943 because the Japanese were maltreating the POWs
//No doubt I will be vilified for such an opinion.//
No I have tried to analyse each mis-statement and show why it is obviously wrong.
//I well remember the slow fading after the Forties and Fifties until the whole affair became almost completely absent from media (and to a large extent public) attention.// well it clearly didnt fade from the memories of the combattants - but I remember the media sneering about it, in the usual marxist and anti-imperial manner. The Great War ( beeb tv 1964) was incredibly popular ( along with All Our Yesterdays with Brian Inglis). This made Max Hastings' reputation. A week ago he was re-writing that losing 700 000 men dead wasnt that much .....
//Then along came Falklands and Thatcher and it all began to ramp up again until reaching last year's obsessive levels (this year is different, being the centenary).// - well one followed the other but does that mean one caused the other ? well, the last case of smallpox in England was observed in 1976 ( I was a contact ) and after that Remembrance Days were more popular but I dont ascribe one to the other. Bliar was certain it should be forgotten and moved the commemoration to a Sunday - it was moved back not by demand whipped up by the media but by the people themselves. - a good example of the people "bucking their leaders"
//I cannot avoid thinking it is all an Establishment Initiative "pour encourager les autres".// This falls down on the media being tools of the Establishment. After a century of the marxist beeb, I just dont think so. Secondly - the idea of shooting someone to encourage the others ( Voltaire's maxim on the execution of Admiral Byng for losing Minorca 1706) - doesnt work. "Join up and we will shoot you" is not a good recruiting maxim. I could be wrong. The executions for desertion 1914 were very unpopular and were commuted later on. Men did NOT join up in 1943 because the Japanese were maltreating the POWs
//No doubt I will be vilified for such an opinion.//
No I have tried to analyse each mis-statement and show why it is obviously wrong.
I find the article very refreshing and its contents both appropriate and courageous, such is the stark contrast with the mainstream conformist/traditional/de rigueuer position.
The paragraph mentioning Catalonia and Scotland probably does not belong in the piece. It is essentially correct although Catalan and Scots ambitions for independence really have nothing to do with remembrance or enmity/antagonism or even opposition in its basic sense but instead it is an ambition to express a different outlook and wanting to be as different as they feel. The resistance to these ambitions is largely one of inertia and feelings of slight - which smack of antagonism. In the case of Scotland, while in the Union it will never be substantially different from the rest of the UK - independent it would have the opportunity to set its own path, maybe/hopefully do better than the UK instead of permanently comparing poorly with other more advanced/successful countries. The perpetual high scorers are all countries with much smaller populations than the UK's and Spain's, both within and outside the EU. Both Catalans and Scots striving for independence almost certainly accept that there are risks as well as opportunities and wish to take both on.
The paragraph mentioning Catalonia and Scotland probably does not belong in the piece. It is essentially correct although Catalan and Scots ambitions for independence really have nothing to do with remembrance or enmity/antagonism or even opposition in its basic sense but instead it is an ambition to express a different outlook and wanting to be as different as they feel. The resistance to these ambitions is largely one of inertia and feelings of slight - which smack of antagonism. In the case of Scotland, while in the Union it will never be substantially different from the rest of the UK - independent it would have the opportunity to set its own path, maybe/hopefully do better than the UK instead of permanently comparing poorly with other more advanced/successful countries. The perpetual high scorers are all countries with much smaller populations than the UK's and Spain's, both within and outside the EU. Both Catalans and Scots striving for independence almost certainly accept that there are risks as well as opportunities and wish to take both on.
I accept that situations may/will arise when war is unavoidable. To suggest that mass killing, past or future, underpins freedom is not something I would subscribe to but I find the thought of it deeply disturbing and saddening - I too have been moved by the horror of visiting war graves/memorials. But I have no desire to turn those feelings into a religious experience or elevate them to some form of glorious ritual - annual or otherwise.
My dad was a WW2 veteran. I'm sure lots on here can say the same thing. He joined the Royal Navy in 1937 and was de-mobbed in 1946. He very rarely mentioned the war; never wore his medals; never wore a poppy; never went to Remembrance services or parades and never watched the Remembrance coverage on TV. I don't know what happened to his medals after various house moves. I used to ask him why he didn't bother with Remembrance Sunday and all he ever said was "Nah. Not for me". That was it.
So he chose not to show that he remembered, although he must have had his memories, which he kept to himself.
And right there you have the freedom of choice. A veteran who didn't want to participate, as opposed to those who do. A hard won freedom. As these men would no doubt testify.
So he chose not to show that he remembered, although he must have had his memories, which he kept to himself.
And right there you have the freedom of choice. A veteran who didn't want to participate, as opposed to those who do. A hard won freedom. As these men would no doubt testify.
10ClarionStreet, You sound to have had similar experiences to me. My dad spent 5 years abroad in the RAF, mostly in North Africa and Egypt, there is no space here to talk about it, but I can strongly recommend this book about families dealing with the aftermath of WW2, It will help you understand your father's feelings more I believe;
Amazon.co.uk User Recommendation
Amazon.co.uk User Recommendation
Peter Padant
/// Did he have a deadline to fill at so many pence / column inch ? or was it an AOG manoeuvre of - just to argue, why dont we forget Remembrance Day? Perhaps we will never know ///
Why do you find the need to bring me into your rambling post, especially since I have not contributed to this thread until now?
/// Did he have a deadline to fill at so many pence / column inch ? or was it an AOG manoeuvre of - just to argue, why dont we forget Remembrance Day? Perhaps we will never know ///
Why do you find the need to bring me into your rambling post, especially since I have not contributed to this thread until now?
