Here's A Right Little Charmer Of An M S P........

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47028246
wonder if this little Tish Gab can comprehend that T G M is one of the reasons he can spout this cobras.

[jim360]

No doubt Churchill's perspective on Europe was complicated, but then also so what? For various reasons, I don't think the great man has kept up-to-date with modern British history.

[naomi24]

Complicated? He couldn't have made his opinions clearer.

[jim360]

Nuanced, then. Whatever. The point is still that he kind of missed out on the last 50-odd years of history.

[naomi24]

...and?

[Jackdaw33]

I like the famous Bessie Braddock exchange. Churchill at his best.

[jim360]

Well, it depends a lot on what points you wish to draw from what Churchill said on a given issue. If it's merely to ensure that we know what he said then clearly that he's dead now hardly matters. If -- as I certainly would suspect from gulliver's posts -- highlighting what he said is meant to make a political point, then it certainly *does* matter that his opinion is a little out-of-date.

[naomi24]

Jim, A political point? No, and I gave no indication of that. Gulliver was wrong. I put him right.

So in order to be modern does our country need to abandon its pride, its sovereignty, its independence, and its self-respect by capitulating to the control of others? Is that the fashionable thing to do? Right on!! Well, call me old fashioned but If Churchill’s opinion of a unified Europe is out of date then so is mine because I agree with him – and I’m not dead.

[jim360]

I don't think that being part of Europe, either in the present EU or in any future, equivalent body, necessarily means abandoning any of those things -- certainly not pride and self-respect, which all other EU nations have in spades even whilst being comfortable in the Union.

Churchill's opinion, meanwhile, of Britain's role in Europe was shaped rather heavily by his obvious fondness for our Imperial past. This isn't a criticism, but it's also difficult to see how exactly one can claim to be forward-looking whilst hearkening back to the "glory days" of Empire, which are now long behind us.

But anyway. I admire Churchill a lot, and despite all the undoubted faults in his character and views he remains one of my favourite politicians.

[gulliver1]

11.28 ,I am amazed she has not tried to correct me ,and say it was Lady Astor and not Bessie Braddock.

[naomi24]

Jim, //I don't think that being part of Europe, either in the present EU or in any future, equivalent body, necessarily means abandoning any of those things//

I know you don't. Why you don't is beyond me, but there you are.

[jim360]

Different perspectives, I guess. But you could always ask why it doesn't.

[naomi24]

I could – but yet another repeat performance is unlikely to make more sense now than it ever did.

[jim360]

It's a sad state of affairs when there's no incentive even to try and understand an opposing position. Still, I'll have a go anyway: being part of the EU is manifestly not "capitulating", because it is not and never has been "us v. them".

Once you get away from that siege mentality then it becomes rather a lot easier to understand why people might view EU membership favourably. That's not to say that the institution as it currently exists is perfect, because it isn't even close to that.

[naomi24]

Gulliver dear, Churchill’s famous quote topped a poll – but no one knows to which of the two ladies it was addressed. Take Talbot’s advice and do more research. ;o)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/my-dear-you-are-ugly-but-tomorrow-i-shall-be-sober-and-you-will-still-be-ugly-winston-churchill-tops-8878622.html

[naomi24]

Jim, //It's a sad state of affairs when there's no incentive even to try and understand an opposing position.//

Sadder still that the principle of democracy is so readily abandoned.

[jim360]

I don't believe I am abandoning democracy (obviously). I can understand why you think otherwise, but no debate can ever be regarded as fully settled in a democracy, and each decision can -- indeed, must -- be capable of revision or even reversal as circumstances dictate. That's a vital principle: if, in this case, you wish it were not, a time will come when positions are reversed and you will be glad of the strength of democracy that it is never regarded as settled for all time.

[jim360]

Anyway, we're drifting rather far from Churchill at this point. If you want to return to discussing the definition of democracy, in theory and in practice, then we can do that elsewhere perhaps.

[-Talbot-]

He had many faults but the world needs people like Churchill because the world produces people like Hitler.

Never surrender.

[naomi24]

Jim, //I don't believe I am abandoning democracy//

I don’t believe you - and the reason I don’t believe you is that I posted something you’d written the day after the referendum where you’d resigned yourself to accepting the result. Since then you’ve jumped with what appears to be enormous relief upon on the disingenuous bandwagon that is the ‘Remain’ campaign.

As for democracy being capable of revision – indeed it is but results of democratic votes are changed by subsequent votes offering the same options. Up until now they have not been changed by ignoring the result, and up until now that would have been wholly unacceptable to all concerned, so please, stop with the claptrap and excuses Jim. Even though you’re not fooling me, I’d like to say you’re fooling yourself but I can’t. I have no doubt whatsoever that you know exactly what you’re championing.

[naomi24]

No, Jim, I don't want to discuss the definition of democracy with you. I know what democracy means.