Oh Dear, The Veil Of Civilised Discussion Seems To Be Slipping!

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47143135
Special place in hell? yeah next to you and your tyrant buddies mate!

[Kromovaracun]

And yes, the way in which we leave the EU has serious implications for what our options are afterwards. So having some idea of where we wanted to end up (also known as "a plan") would have been enormously helpful in sorting our priorities now.

But hey maybe I'm wrong and having a plan would somehow have been a bad thing..?

[Kromovaracun]

//Wasn't that the job of the Executive?//

It was the job of people who campaigned for it (I'm not suggesting voter-on-the-street was somehow obliged to come up with a plan). Alas they all fled from the responsibility of implementing the decision.

[ChillDoubt]

Nige’s response to Tusk:

After Brexit we will be free of unelected, arrogant bullies like you and run our own country. Sounds more like heaven to me.

Pretty spot on.

[Jackdaw33]

A good retort.

[ichkeria]

So the large mass of human waste material that was on a collision course with the Answerbank air disturbance mechanism has finally made contact.

Want to know where that "special place in hell" is?

Here's a clue, perhaps:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/an-evening-with-jacob-rees-mogg-in-conversation-with-fraser-nelson-tickets-53382033098

[Kromovaracun]

I used to have a very guilty crush on Fraser Nelson...

[youngmafbog]

Nige right in there as usual.

[Old_Geezer]

We knew what we wanted. We had the red lines and obviously wanted best trading positions subject to those. Stating reality is no soundbite. One goes into negotiations as flexible as possible not knowing exactly what will result. (Even if you need to hide your back position in order to do ok. The issue has always been the desire of the EU give give little or nothing but impose problems on the UK, for opting to leave EU control, even at the expense of their member states.)

[Khandro]

One of the major problems of the whole of this process (apart from Teresa May) has been the freeing of the privacy which British politics once embraced. When I was a young man, the only way one could know what was said in parliament was to attend the public gallery, read the press reports in the newspapers, or read Hansard.

It has been possible for the Brussels elite, and anyone anywhere else in the World, to sit with their feet up, and watch all the squabbling in parliament and even in committee meetings, and ascertain not only the overall mood but, what every single member's views are.

Meanwhile all the relevant meetings of the Commission take place under a veil of privacy, - nice one!

[Old_Geezer]

"The UK didn't agree what it wanted"

It voted out. The nation could not get itself held hostage to those who would not accept the result and refused to get behind it. Wait until everyone agrees something and you wait forever never doing anything.

We had the goal, we knew we wanted to simply leave EU control, we knew we wanted to retain good trading relationships like some other non-EU nations have, preferably better, and stay on good relationships, continue to participate in projects and security arrangements.

Guess which side wouldn't agree, all but forcing May's hand to either sign up to the unacceptable or return saying she'd failed ? (She chose the wrong option. Has to try to reopen negotiations to please the HoC anyway.)

[Kromovaracun]

//One goes into negotiations as flexible as possible not knowing exactly what will result. //

You can't have a strategy if you don't know what your goal is, and it's simply not acceptable to have no strategy for the country's trade post-Brexit. The way in which we leave really does have a decisive impact in the real world on what our post-Brexit options are and not having a plan is, and always was, stupid, reckless and irresponsible.

Are you seriously suggesting we'd be in a worse position if we'd had a plan? Because that's what your argument here effectively means and that is, frankly, mad.

[naomi24]

The stark realisation of the result of the EU’s own stubborn intransigence has now hit home with Mr Tusk & Co. They’ve held all the cards, they’ve dictated every step of the way, they’ve held this country in utter disdain, but the walkover they had planned has come back to smack them in the face. The real possibility of this country walking away wasn’t what they bargained for – and the prospect of that happening frightens the hell out of them.

[youngmafbog]

Krom, whichever way you cut it you seem to assume that if we had a plan then the EU woudl have simply gone "OK then".

News Flash me old china. They wouldnt.

OG has put to you what the plan should be and thats about as far as it can go. Bottom line is the EU was never going to geive, leavers knew what they were like and it was no surprise. The problems came by giving the 'negotiations;' to Treason the Remainer and listening too much to those that lost the referendum.

The correct way, without a doubt would be to declare a No deal exit and go from there, never disclosing your hand. Even that may not have budged the intransigent EU that were determined to punish the UK, but it may have led to the likes of the German car manufactures to lean on them. And of course, worse case, the UK would have been fully prepared for No deal. But the savageness of the Remeainers and Project fear put paid to that.

[Old_Geezer]

We had a plan and I described. The negotiating team may have had more detail but that's not relevant.

My argument here neither means nor even implies anything of the sort. It is a) we had a plan and b) waiting forever to put in exact details most of which would have to be dropped wouldn't help.

EU griping about needing to be told more is simply an excuse for their lack of cooperation, that many seem to have fallen for. These details are ironed out at the table, not described in detail in order to be rejected from the start.

Had the EU any intention of progressing the talks they'd have suggested starting with the Canadian agreement and merging it with our present relationship to come up with something more appropriate and acceptable to our situation. All we've seen suggested from the EU is mickey taking suggestions such as cutting NI off from the rest of the UK and having a border down the Irish Sea !

[Kromovaracun]

//The problems came by giving the 'negotiations;' to Treason the Remainer and listening too much to those that lost the referendum. //

Who was it that gave the negotiations to May, ymb? It was the British public - including many (perhaps even most) of the same people who voted for Brexit in the first place. If you voted for Brexit in 2016 and voted Tory in 2017, then this is *exactly* what you voted for.

[Old_Geezer]

I think you'll find that the Tory oarty voted in May to take change. The public voted in the Tory party as being the least worse group to take over the negotiations, but not because they, nor anyone else, seems ideal. Sometimes no option is great to vote for, which is why we get low turnouts at GEs.

[Old_Geezer]

PARTY

[naomi24]

Short of sending Nigel Farage or another equally fervent ‘Leaver’ to speak for us, the negotiations wouldn’t have produced a different result. Neither side in this process wants this country to leave the EU – and that is the crux of the problem.

[naomi24]

Krom, did you hope that, after the last election, Jeremy would be leading negotiations and if so, do you think he'd have been more successful?

[ichkeria]

Like all such “undiplomatic” outbursts, for everyone with steam coming out of their ears there’ll be someone quietly going “You tell ‘em Donald!”
Sounds familiar. I’d say that if he’s upsetting TROB (“the rotten old Brexiters”) then he must be doing something right ;-)