Does Jezza Have A Point?

[youngmafbog]

I must admit I wasn't really sure but having read this I think I may actually have to agree with him.

Now we have the fixed term then surely time for a re-think?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6724489/Labour-considers-law-change-treat-defectors-politicians-jailed.html

[ToraToraTora]

JF85 are you ZM in disguise, he wants to make it illegal to retain their seat after leaving the party! Derr! I'll get the jelly and nails! PMSL!

[naomi24]

I disagree with Jim entirely. Had these MPs stood originally as Independents the chances are none of them would have won their seats. The only reason they are where they are is because the stood for election backed by an established party banner. Yes, Mr Corbyn does have a point – but treating defecting MPs as criminals is ridiculous. He needs to get a grip. Since they no longer represent the party they were elected to represent, they should stand for re-election immediately.

[Gromit]

It is torally the wrong time to have 11 or more by-elections now. There are more important things to deal with in our immediate future.

However, it is worth remembering that Douglas Carswell on his defection to UKIP Resigned his seat to fight the Clacton by-election - and won!

[naomi24]

//It is torally the wrong time to have 11 or more by-elections now. //

Not in my opinion. I voted for someone who stood under the banner of an established political party. Had I wanted an Independent representing me, I'd have voted for one.

[JF85]

I am not asking for anything to be made illegal. I was questioning suggestions that holding by-elections when an MP decides to leave the party with which they were elected in any way criminalises the dissidents. Leaving the party is different to voting against it on one or two issues and merits testing the ongoing accountability.

[Gromit]

Naomi,
Under the present rules, they do not have to give up their seat, so they won’t.
I agree it would be the honourable thing to do, but we are stuck with them as Indepedents.
I cannot see this Government going the full 5 year term, so you might the chance to unelect them sooner than 2022.

[ichkeria]

He effectively wants them treated like MPs who’ve actually done something morally suspect.
That’s close enough to “criminal” to me. Pathetic really. If I was him I wouldn’t shout too loudly about by-elections. He might get a nasty surprise. This don’t forget is a politician who shrugged off a massive vote of no confidence in himself by his MPs back in 2016, so his respect for parliamentary democracy is zero.

[naomi24]

Gromit, //Under the present rules, they do not have to give up their seat, so they won’t. //

I know.

[Gromit]

// a politician who shrugged off a massive vote of no confidence in himself by his MPs back in 2016, so his respect for parliamentary democracy is zero. //

As a result of the 127 MPs who voted their no confidence in him Corbyn called a leadership election (though he didn’t have to) and recieved 313,209 votes of confidence from Labour Party members.

[jim360]

// I disagree with Jim entirely. //

Well, there's a first time for everything :P

// Had these MPs stood originally as Independents the chances are none of them would have won their seats. //

On that point perhaps you are right, but then again it was never tested. But even if true does it not speak to the fact that having parties but being forced to vote for MPs is a logical contradiction at the heart of our electoral system? Which sort of brings me back to the wider point I was hinting at in my first post: namely, that the present electoral system throws up these sorts of issues, and it's as good as case as any to be made for changing it. FPTP is simply not designed for party politics.

In practice none of the three Tory MPs is likely to change their voting habits much anyway; the only difference is that they can no longer be called rebels.

[cassa333]

I think at least one of the extremists in the Tory party has now left it.

I regard Soubry as the extremist because she has been very vocal about overturning the democratic vote. If that’s not extreme then I obviously don’t know what extreme is.

[naomi24]

Jim, //But even if true does it not speak to the fact that having parties but being forced to vote for MPs is a logical contradiction at the heart of our electoral system? //

If you're suggesting we simply put our crosses by 'Labour', 'Conservative', etc., who would our representatives be? Just random, unknown people selected by the elite of the party? Sounds familiar.

[ichkeria]

“Corbyn called a leadership election”

Oh go on ....
I hope your tongue was in your cheek when you typed that.
He actually lost that vote by 40 votes to 172. That’s most of the elected PLP telling him to begone. And he went over their heads to rent-a -mob after a legal wrangle over whether he should even be in the leadership election which would have happened anyway.

[jim360]

As I understand it, you voted at the last election for the party, rather than for the candidate. So isn't that essentially what you are doing anyway? Yes, I know that this way you know who "your" MP is, but if it doesn't make a difference whether it's Joe Bloggs (Con) or Josephine McBlogginton III (Con), as long as what's in brackets doesn't change... would it not be better to have a system that at least more closely reflects that aspect of your vote?

In any case, there are halfway houses, between FPTP and full-blown PR, that still retain the link to an individual representative. This is perhaps a debate for a separate thread -- but all I am saying is that if you, personally, vote for a party rather than a person then FPTP isn't the system that best serves the way you vote. Unless I am missing something about what you were saying earlier.

[Gromit]

ichkeria
Apologies for typo. Yes 172.

But the Labour Party leader is elected by the wider party membership, and not the PLP.
If anyone was being undemocratic, it was the MPs for disregarding the result of the previous leadership election.

[naomi24]

No Jim. I like to know who my bloke is. There's a chance I won't like him and hence, an outside chance I won't vote for him. Not everything is set in stone.

[jim360]

Ah, I see -- thanks for clearing that point up. But that still leaves open the door for a compromise between the two systems, all the same.

[Zacs-Master]

Criminalising defecting MP's undermines our Parliamentary process, and democracy. It's just sour grapes and he seems to be missing the point.

[ichkeria]

My point is gromit that he doesn’t respect parliamentary democracy. Most of his MPs told him to go and he didn’t. One can agrur that he had a democratic mandate from the members and MPs decided to respect that (they hadn’t much choice) but it didn’t solve the issue that he’s out of step with his MPs. Even one unexpectedly undisastrous election ultimately did not change that.

[Gromit]

Ich,
Besides the 2017 election when the Labour Party gained 30 seats, the Corbyn led party also did quite well in the 2018 Local Elections when Labour gained 79, the most seats.
Labour MPs keep insisting that Corbyn is an electoral liability, and cannot win seats, but he keeps proving them wrong.