Flirting Women Asking For Rape

[Drusilla]

Believe it or not, this is the headline of the London Metro today. I picked it up whilst returning from a job and very nearly missed my station, I was so shocked.

Amnesty International were responsible for the study that stated one third of Britons believe a woman who acts flirtatiously is partly to blame if she is raped.

Amazingly, 5% of women thought a woman totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, compared with only 3% of men.

12000 rapes were reported in 2004-2005, but Amnesty believe the actual figure is closer to 60000.

Are ABers as shocked as me at the blame culture that still exists in rape cases?

Feel free to drift as far away from my question as you please, but let's keep it civilised please, ABers.

[jake-the-peg]

3% and 5% are pretty small figures that's the sort of support the BNP gets

What would be more worrying would be if they repeated the excercise in a few years and found that the figure had grown.

Personally I'm not that surprised about the female figure being higher. I've often found women to be surprisingly less sympathetic to other women in unguarded moments than in public.

[surfer mike]

I agree pretty shocking, but can't help but feel this survey has been influenced by the seemingly endless string of alleged rape accusations against high profile celebrities like premiership footballers that seem to occur every other week, that turn out to be unfounded and solely motivated by money, and ultimately these charlatans betray the 99.9% of females that actually do encounter the appalling crime of rape.

[Drusilla]

I agree that women can often be harsher than men in these matters, Jake. The 3% and 5% are for people who feel the woman is 'totally responsible'. Sadly, I can't find figures relating to lesser degrees of responsibility. Not that I like using the word 'responsibility' in relation to women in this case, but that is the terminology being used in the survey.

[andy hughes]

I still find it impossible to believe that any sane thinking mature individual can believe that a woman in any way 'contributes' to rape. I think a woman should be able to walk around stark naked leering at every man she sees, and still be able to say 'No' to sex, and have her wishes respected.

The issue lies with the concept of rape itself.

Rape is not rough sex - it's robbery with violence, assault ands battery, mental and physical torture.

Rape is not about sex, it's about power and control. How else is the rape of old women, children, and men explained, unless it is a matter of assault, not desire.

I would take instant and serious issue with anyone i heard even hinting that any person had 'asked for it' - that kind of thinking gives men permission to simply take what they want from an uncoperative individual, and then be excused for it. It's 2005 for God's sake! Where on earth does this neanderthal attitude come from!

[andy hughes]

Oh, I forget, in response to jake-the-peg's assertion of 'small figures' - I do hope I don;t interperet from this that 'small' equals 'acceptable'? The figure we are looking for jake is 0% and 0% - there is no room for debate about anything more.

[AliFlump]

I was shocked too Drusilla, hope you dont mind if i add some other facts that they found to strengthen your point

34% believe women who flirt can be blamed if they are raped

26% say if a woman is in sexy clothes she is partly to blame

I find it disgusting that people can even slightly blame a woman for being raped, it must be one of the most horrific things that can happen to a woman or a man for that matter. Noone asks to be raped and the fact that there could be 60000 victims out there that we may not know about shows that we need to find away for women to report the crimes without fear of retaliation

[Drusilla]

Can I just throw a few more facts in to feed the fire. Apparently, fewer than 10 police forces in England and Wales have dedicated rape teams and only 6% of reported rapes lead to a conviction. It is believed between 80-90% of rapes go unreported.
I'm just shocked that such a crime doesn't warrant specialised units in all forces like the ones portrayed in the TV programme, Special Victims Unit, in New York. I also agree with Andy that rape is not about gratifying sexual urges, but the enforcement of power over others.

[nfn]

there was a woman on radio 2 at lunchtime who reckons that if a woman is dressed sexily, flirts or agrees to have sex with someone at 8pm then changes her mind at 10pm the man is still NOT GUILTY of rape. She reckons once a woman has said yes then she's fair game! This particular woman also didn't believe it was possible for a woman to be raped by her husband or partner as she had consented to sex with him once upon a time! UNBELIEVABLE! By the way, I DON'T agree with her, just in case you were wondering!

[Drusilla]

I just want to hang my head nfn. What makes a woman today think like that??

[woofgang]

yes I believe that women (and men and children) should be able to dress as they please, go anywhere at any time, behave in any way that does not damage others and be safe. I really do.

I am female

AND what I am going to say next doesn't indicate that I think that specific behaviours mean that a person is "asking for it" or in any way responsible or to blame

BUT I would like to be able to leave my car unlocked and my back door open when I am out of the house so that the dog can come and go as she pleases. I know that I can't do this and if I do leave my back door open, then I increase the risk that I will be burgled.

Again, its not about blame but if people will go out and get drunk among strangers, possibly even take a lift or travel home with someone that the have never met, without making provision for their own safety, then they too will be increasing their risk of having something horrible happen

That's all that I am saying...now you can yell at me

[jake-the-peg]

Not acceptable but unsurprising.

You'll never get 0% in a survey like this, partly becasues some people will always want to "mess up" the survey but also because you have to expect extreme views in any large group of individuals.

I reckon you could get at least 1% who'd say it should be legal to forcibly castrate car thieves in order to deter and to remove them from the gene pool.

I agree with Drusilla that the figure we need to see is the "partially responsible" one - I'll bet that'd be much more shocking.

[Drusilla]

I'm not going to shout at you Woofgang, I'm glad you joined in. I think you're right in the sense that 'taking responsibility for your actions is different from taking the blame for someone else's.

[Oneeyedvic]

Andy - if you are looking for a figure of 0% then I am afraid you may as well urinate in the wind. We are talking about people's opinions - and you will always get people who disagree.

That said, I do actually agree with you (but it seems 1/3 of people don't agree with us).

Again, I do find myself blaming a lot fo this on the media - as mentioned by surfer-mike there have been a lot of media stories about high profile stars - from the 'roasting' involving footballers to the Ulrika Johnston story. I believe though I may be corrected than John Leslie was accused by a variety of women that he was raped, but no charges were brought. Now does this mean he was guilty but never brought to justice, or was ita media frenzy and women made it up? Guess we will never know (though I do feel that Ulrika Johnson didn't do a lot of good for the anti rape cause)

I would be interested to know (for topic of debate) how many of the 94% who aren't convicted are actually proved to be innocent (eg the Hamiltons)

[AliFlump]

Jake i have stated some partly responsible stats above

[metagirl]

I was very shocked, but not surprised, when I saw this today too. What a great thing to read during your commute, smashed against a carriage full of men!

I agree with Woofgang, in that women really need to protect themselves, as now, sexuality and what is deemed acceptable behaviour between men & women is so tragically blurred.

We live in an age where Jordan, trussed up Girls Aloud, bootylicious hip-hop girls, Nuts magazine, Sharon Osbourne and her million pound makeover, and wild "ladette" behaviour are all considered commonplace and in fact, admirable. Where in the world do these things fit in with the supposed normative themes of : "equal rights for women", "dignity", "freedom from fear and intimidation"? Are we ignorant to think that we can get away with portraying women as sex objects in the media and then expect loser men who already have hang-ups of some sort to keep from thinking of them in the same capacity in real life?

There is bound to be some confusion, as seen by the responses in that survey, by our crazy society and its weird malee of gender values.

[twopennorth]

I no longer live in the London area, but often got annoyed at the Evening Standard's inflammatory headlines. It sounds like the Metro is heading in that direction.

This is their interpretation of AI's survey - perhaps heading off to their website for more details might put your mind at rest. Exactly what questions were posed and how were they phrased?

To be realistic, a scantily-clad woman who is drunk in a bar is going to stand more chance of getting raped than someone who is sitting quietly at home. That could be all that was meant by "partly" responsible - in itself this is not necessarily a moral judgement.

[Ward-Minter]

Thank you for your permision to "drift".

Just a few facts to muse over about "rape" figures.

Firstly the law changed about 5 years ago in which rape victims included men (anal), prostitutes and more importantly wives.

Then two years ago under Sexual Offences act 2003, rape included the mouth. A further offence of "Sexual assault by Penetration" was also added.

Further to this, the sudden rise is so called "date rape drugs" have all added to increased figures which don't make good reading. All that aside though, I guess it means that the illegal violation of peoples orifices by a penis only is still one of the most horrendous crimes imaginable. (In this country a woman can not be a rapist, though she can still aid/abet, procure, cousel or conspire to commit rape)

Rape in the case of relationships is hard to prove due to the lack of any DNA swabs would be inadmissable unless it can be proved that no sexual contact has occurred in a while. Unlikely really.

My point is, and I do not want to be lynched, is the fact, the hollywood rape, i.e stranger in a dark alleyway, doesn't really happen too often thankfully. What I am saying is I believe it should be a two tiered law.

I accept that when a wife is raped it must be awful, not only a vilolation of her body but a knock to the marriage, but is it as bad as a stranger? Methinks not. I therefore propose that rape should be downgraded in these circumstances. Or upgraded with a stranger.

Any thoughts?

[maggie01]

No woman or man asks to be raped, but I do think they put themselves in some compromising situations at time. Drinking far too much, excepting lifts from people they have only just met, walking down lonely places in the early hours. Some men see the opportunity and take it. Of course this isn't right but I do think perhaps you have to be more aware of your own actions. As woofgang says, that in an ideal world you should be able to dress as you please, walk anywhere at any time, but you have to be realistic, this is not an ideal world.

[jake-the-peg]

Wow Ali ,missed those sorry.

I thought they'd be shocking but that's unbelievable.

Having looked through the survey it's also interesting how older participants were more likely to blame the victim.

With regards to the walking alone in a bad area I wish they asked how this would contribute to blame for getting mugged because this would have shown how crimes with a sexual element were seen differently but I guess as Amnesty comissioned it they probably didn't want to detract from the point they were making.

[nedflanders]

Heres the actual article

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16618.shtml