Was Sweden Right After All?

[ichkeria]

No compulsory lockdown there. Roundly criticised by its neighbours.

However the countries which protected its citizens from the virus previously are now seeing growing numbers of cases while Sweden’s is now by comparison very low.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/15/sweden-records-its-fewest-daily-covid-19-cases-since-march

[Apc2604]

I have friends in Denmark Jim and they told me exactly what you have said about Sweden regarding following the rules. There were very tight rules and not questioned. As one of my friends said early in the pandemic, 'the Danish are used to being very good and following rules - what on earth is happening in the UK ,'. The trouble as I see it is that our politicians tried too hard please us and kept changing the rules.

[dannyk13]

APC, no matter what the rules are you will always get those who think that they do not apply to them.This is demonstrated by many on here.

[Apc2604]

Agreed Danny, or they make a big show on AB about how they won't follow the rules and make themselves look like idiots. Why do they feel the need to boast about it?

[douglas9401]

Perhaps not giving 'advice' but laying down and enforcing 'rules' would be a better approach.

Sadly though, here today, gone tomorrow politicians want to be everybody's friend and can't bring themselves to be stern, authoritarian or even vaguely competent when it comes down to it.

Now, back to moonshot and other tripe.

[iluvmargie]

Do they 'boast', or do they just give their opinion ??

[jim360]

That's true, and is more problematic in a country like the UK which is (a) more densely populated, and (b) maybe more politically-charged. I'd say overall, early on, there was a lot of goodwill and sympathy for the politicians in charge no matter which party you supported, but that is clearly fading -- either because of mixed messages or because of whatever other reason.

The advantage the Swedish had is that the rules were set by an independent body, which provides some level of trust. It would in the UK have been true of any party in power, but if you are motivated even slightly by "what will the voters think?" when making health policy decisions, it has to be the wrong mindset.

A good way of viewing this would be to compare Public Health England with the Swedish equivalent. Over there, the Health Agency is solely and entirely responsible, even to the point where politicians passed legislation that the body required; but that means that they are the ones accountable. This doesn't seem to be the case in the UK. PHE gathers data and implements policy, but does not actually set that policy -- at least, as far as I'm aware. This means that the Health Secretary is still in control of the policy direction etc, but has also meant that PHE is the one held accountable when the policy that it didn't design goes wrong. Hence why PHE has been blamed for various failings, including by the Government.

I'm careful to say "Health Secretary" rather than "Matt Hancock", because I think this is a structural flaw rather than a political one. The theme running throughout this pandemic, that "no Government could have done better/differently", could be just as well expressed as "politicians have nothing particularly useful to add to public health crisis response". If that's the case, why not set up an agency that is responsible not just for implementing health policy but also for setting it?

[Ellipsis]

The Scandinavian countries certainly have it right in one regard, the World Happiness Index:

1 Finland
2 Denmark
3 Norway
4 Iceland
5 Netherlands
6 Switzerland
7 Sweden

[Peter Pedant]

// APC, no matter what the rules are you will always get those who think that they do not apply .This is demonstrated by many on AB //
MPs in parliament
Boris
Dom the damned
the whole o France ( l'exception francaise.)

so there are a few - I have to say

[woofgang]

I know somebody who lives in denmark and has done for many years. She says its a social thing that very few people who live in Denmark witll admit to being unhappy or admit to wanting to live elsewhere.

[Apc2604]

Iluvmargie, Some boast others give opinions. It's not difficult to work out who is boasting.

[Togo]

The main advantage that the Swedish Government has, is that it is served by a civil service that has not been corrupted by damaging groupthink, lack of impartiality and, a blatant disregard for democracy. The bad advice, "off the record" briefings, lack of accountability or performance related structure, and downright partisanship has left our own nigh on unfit for purpose.

[iluvmargie]

I don't think anyone boasts at all. I could say your posts on the subject are rather pious, but you wouldn't like that, would you?

[Apc2604]

If I had to live anywhere else in Europe, it would probably be Denmark. My Danish friends lived in the UK for many years and love the UK, but family circumstances took them back to Denmark. We were going to meet up again this year in Denmark, but it isn't going to happen.

[Apc2604]

I wouldn't give a jot Margie. I don't know you and what you think doesn't matter. I can think of at least three people who boast about not following the rules, but I wouldn't name them.

[iluvmargie]

And probably what you think about them wouldn't matter to them either apc. It certainly doesn't matter to me because I often say I don't wear a mask, so I suspect I am one of the ones your boasting dig is meant for. But than again, I think your comments are pious and condescending.

[Apc2604]

If the cap fits wear it Margie, but actually you are not one of those I was thinking of at all. You continue to direct personal remarks at me. So be it.

[iluvmargie]

Well don't accuse others of 'boasting' then, when they just have a different opinion to you. Doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong.

[Apc2604]

Give it a rest Margie I have already said it is pretty obvious to distinguish who is boasting and who is just giving an opinion. Go ahead though if you must have the
last word.

[ichkeria]

I am not blaming our government for acting differently.
Especially as most other governments in the civilised world did the same.
I also realise that when it comes to the UK in particular, you cannot necessarily compare Sweden, or indeed a lot of other countries (such as New Zealand)

But if Sweden's case rate remains low (around 300 per day now) by comparson with the rest of Europe and elsewhere, then it may worth considering.
I don't personally think there will be another lockdown here in any case.

[Spicerack]

I blame all the cantankerous old ABers.
Before any shutdowns the Gov begged old people to self isolate for their own good.
Then the young and fit could share the Covid about and kill it with herd immunity.
Would you have it, would you heck as like.