Immigrants

[coyn]

Tony Blair tells us that to get out of our pension deficit problem we need to allow 3000/4000 immigrants a week to come to this country.

Since the vast majority of them have no particular skills that this country needs and given that at day one they are entitled to free housing, free healthcare, and free schooling for their children for which they have contributed nothing, how is this supposed to ease our problem exactly?

This is not a racial rant, I really dont understand what this government is thinking. Do you?

[LazyGun]

This sounds like pure hyperbole,exaggeration and rubbish to me, based around a barely veiled agenda of your own,which despite your claims to the contrary I believe to be either racist and/or nationalist.

Links and evidence to support your wild assertions please.

[coyn]

Links to what Lazygun? are you so naive as to think all immigrants are university graduates?

Are you so naive that you think we have job opportunities going begging to the tune of 3000 per week

and I dont appreciate your typical student opinion that I must have a hidden agenda because I'm not politically correct, I made it clear that this is not racial in any way, I just dont understand the point of it.

[libertie]

The scariest thing I find is peoples ignorance of the facts! While I accept that there is a problem with illegal immigration......not all immigrants are illegal! The company I work for employs some immigrants on the shop floor most of whom are Pollish, they are polite, hardworking, helpful and good timekeepers, they pay rent and council tax for their accomodation, they also pay prescription charges, granted they are entiltled to healthcare and schooling for their children which is being paid for in part by the tax and national insurance contributions that they are making!

Can't remember the exact figure, but last year something like 6000 immigrants arrived in Scotland and only around 80 of them tried to claim any benefits!

[gary baldy]

You a wrong on two fronts. Not only are many, many immigrants highly skilled and well educated they are also 'wealth creators' - they are prepared to work hard and build businesses. Our NHS would be crippled without immigrants and many immigrants from Eastern Europe and the Indian sub continent are very well educated. Conversely we have a big shortage of non-skilled workers because our 'own' greedy, lazy, selfish, materialistic workers aren't prepared to do the 'dirty' jobs. Many industries totally rely on immigrant workers and our vegetables wouldnt get picked, our offices wouldnt get cleaned, our buses wouldnt get driven etc etc if it wasnt for these reliable, hard working people.
This is not a socialist rant or a "benneton advert - lets-all-live--together-as-one" idealistic view- its just the way it is.

[jake-the-peg]

I think the arguement runs along the lines that with a population bulge now reaching its 40's by the time they get to retirement age you'll have a deficit of people of working age so the economy will stagnate.

Consequently we actually need to import people now and train them (as pointed out you can't always get graduates) so that in 30 years time the economy is strong enough to support our aged population.

I'm not an economist, I can't vouch for the logic or the statistics but I think that is what the government is thinking - which is what the question was

[coyn]

Gary, I'm not disputing the fact that people from India or pakistan or where ever they are from are not hard working people who contribute to the society that they live in, but stop looking at my original question as if it is racist, it isn't.

There are no jobs in this country that cant be filled by british people, in fact there arn't enough jobs to employ our own people so where are we going to find 150,000 extra places PER ANNUM?

[Supernick]

Is there any link anywhere to back up the statement in the question, becasue I cannot recall hearing this recently. I'm completely with Gary on this one, and I wish that once and for all people would understand the difference between legal and illegal immigration. We need to sort out our illegal problem but why on earth do people think that every single imigrant, legal or otherwise is part of an Albanian gang running prostitution and claiming thousands in benefits? Legal immigrants are not only those people propping up our 'dirty jobs', they're graduates from Europe, the USA etc. Our biggest immigrant entry last year was from Ireland. You wouldn't hear that though down the pub, because they're not from a scary African country.

[Supernick]

fyi coyn - I'm not insinuating that you're racist in any way - I'm on a bit of a rant this morning because I've got several Daily Mail readers banging on about immigration this morning sat around me ;)

[Gevs1966]

coyn, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that your question may not be racist but it is certainly ill educated and poorly researched.

It is also extremely ignorant of you to think that there are no jobs in this country that can't be filled by British people. The simple fact remains that many people in this country are not prepared to the "dirty" jobs as gary points out. I have actually met someone who was claiming unemployment benefit even though he had been offered jobs as a binman, ground worker etc. Jobs that are easily filled these days by people willing to graft for their wages irrespective of where they came from.

[coyn]

Supernick, I'm not talking about ILLEGAL immigration I'm talking about the 150,000 per annum that are legally allowed to come here.

It doesn't take a math genius to work out that at this rate we will (theoretically at least) have to build a city the size of Leeds every four years to house all these people.

If a man left school in 1955 and worked for fifty years, he is now being told that he shouldn't expect to retire this year, he should work until he is 70 (or to put it another way until he dies)

Where has all the money gone that has been paid in by generations?

A few months ago a woman from Nigeria came here ostensibly on holiday, she was the wife of a diplomat, whilst here she was treated at a london hospital for serious heart problems which she recovered from and then went home leaving the British taxpayer with a bill for three million pounds.

Are you getting the picture Supernick?

[coyn]

gevs1966, you will find as you make your way through life that simply speaking the words isn't enough, they have to be meaningful, yours are not, you sound like Bob Dylan in the sixties professing greatness but full of ****

[undercovers]

you are not getting the picture Coyn - the pensions crises is a bit to difficult to explain here, and i'm not sure i could in any form as it is complicated BUT it boils down to the simple fact that either (a) we are all living too long thus recieveing pensions for longer, as when the pension system was set up max life expectance was put around the 67 mark (though please check for exact number) OR (b) we are not having enough children to sustain the requirements of the pension scheme... You see the the money that we pay in national insurance ect is not saved and then paid back when we are older, rather it is used to pay the pensions of the old people alive NOW, so as the population ages there are less people paying money in and if the trend continues then the pension system will colapse at some point in the really not too distant future.

What were the other problems, JOBS and EDUCATION, I do not have any facts to hand but if I could offer some anecdotal evidence from my previous employment I have met many highly qualified and experienced doctors, researchers, engineers and academics from all around the world that are adding strength and money to our economy by moving to this country... a fact that we should thank them for. Additionally as the economy is boosted by people moving here and starting business, revitalising the economy (where necessary) this also has the effect of producing more jobs and prosperity - for us all.

I too feel that we need to examine the illegal immigrant increase but should never forget the valuable contribution immigrant play in our economy

[AliFlump]

I get your point coyn and it is not racist. I think what your trying to say is that all these people are coming into our country, whether to work or not, and they need a place to live. But isnt this country eventually going to fill up and there wont be anymore room for anyone else?

my friend is looking for a house (he earns a fair wage) at the moment but there is hardly anything in his price range. The people that come over need a place to live if they are going to get jobs, they cant just live on the streets so the council puts them into houses. they then find a job and want to buy a house, fair enough, but how do they afford one?

They are now earning a wage and are entitled to free healthcare, they are paying tax for it so why not but with more people coming into the country they are putting a strain an already overcrowded public services, schools, NHS, housing, police etc.

The point is that we are overcrowded in this country and the home office estimates that there are around 570,000 illegal immigrants in the country already. Surely bringing more people in is not the answer

[gary baldy]

At no point did i imply you were being racist coyn. I understand your concerns - i really do. I just think you should do some more research. The 'indigenous' population is shrinking and getting older. The facts show that on the whole it is only the ethnic minorities that are having enough babies to sustain a sufficient workforce to keep the country running in the coming decades. I repeat- an economy such as our own needs an element of immigration to fill the unskilled gap at the bottom of the social scale - be it the Irish, East European Jews, Chinese , ex Commonwealth or most recently Eastern Europeans. There are a small minority of cases where immigrants make no contribution but they are no worse than super rich tax exiles who leave the country for most of the year to avoid tax and then, when they come back, expect to use our roads and hospitals (yes you Robbie Williams and The Osbournes if you are reading!) No body complained when immigrants Madonna and Angelina Jolie came to live here and what particular skills do they provide?

[stevie_c2it]

Without wishing to get bogged down in the �is he a racist� element of the thread. I�m curious to see coyn being criticised for not defending his point of view with statistics and facts, by people who themselves have presented little in the way of statistics and facts themselves (come on people lets have some balance).
Gary_baldy, although I�m aware your correct in that the �indigenous� population of this country is getting older, I had not heard that it was shrinking. Could you point me in the direction of a link that supports this claim please? Also, (and I am genuinely interested), doe�s anyone have evidence to refute coyns assertions of the need to create �a city the size of Leeds every four years� to house a legal immigration of 150,000 per year. If true, can anyone provide information on what the likely costs to the taxpayer would be? I.e. In providing the supporting infrastructure required, housing, schools, hospital, roads etc. Would there be a cut off point when it is no longer economically, or physically viable to continue immigration on this scale? How will the government in say 20 years time pay for the pensions of the population then? Surely, if this is a continuous policy there must come a time when it would be unsustainable?

[gary baldy]

I'm just about to have my tea stevie c so i cant be bothered right now but the bbc did a survey on this only recently and i'm sure the office of national statistics will back me up (i dont just make these things up you know - my opinions are based on things i read). If have got an hour or two tomorrow i will gladly get you all the facts to back up my arguments (but frankly i dont know if i can be bothered - you havent come up with any so why should i?)

[coyn]

Gary you say Stevie hasn't come up with any FACTS to prove the point I'm trying to make so You cant be bothered, it's not that you cant be bothered Gary it is simply that you cant deny the rock solid fact that this country cannot hope to sustain immigration of 150,000 people per year ( a population the size of Manchester every seven years)

I'm going to say it again and I would like you to shoot me down by proving me wrong, I say that the vast majority of immigrants to this country have no skills that are of any use to Britain.

Now YOU bring on the statistics to show I'm wrong.

[gary baldy]

Right - ive had my tea and a very quick look at
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/
backs up everything i have said. I dont have to provide any facts - the nice people at the Office for National Statistics have.

[stevie_c2it]

Sorry if my asking questions on the 'Answerbank' site has upset you, (I must be in the wrong place ). I in no way intended to appear as if I was questioning your honesty, sincerity or the source of your 'argument'. (It would seem you've assumed that I was challenging your point of view, not the case) I asked for further information because I wasn't aware of 'the shrinking population' and was interested to find out where you'd seen it.

It�s a topic I�m genuinely interested in hearing more on, particularly the views and thoughts of other AB�ers. I realise it�s an emotive topic, and I suspect that the answers proposed may be difficult and contentious.
However Gary Baldy, I think your reaction was a little extreme and unwarranted, if your not interested in engaging in a debate on some of the issues raised here, or �backing up your argument� as you so defensively put it, fine, but why the attitude?

Libertie and Jake, you make good points, I can see the logic and follow the reasoning in solving the pensions deficit with the contributions from both: growing the population (as they are trying to do in Italy with sweeteners for couples who have more kids) and also allowing further controlled immigration, but I�m assuming that inevitably there will come a time when this is unsustainable, where do you think it�ll go next, or do you think that pensions are doomed?

[gary baldy]

.......and by the way - the population of Manchester is 437 000. I dont know where you are getting your statistics from but they are clearly wrong.