Americans and Torture

[stevie_c2it]

With terror suspects being taken to overseas facilities for interrogation in order for the USA to bypass breaking international conventions (Human rights, Geneva etc), do ABers accept that this is necessary evil to fight the 'war on terror' or do you believe it will escalate the 'us V's Islam' ideology?

[Chessman]

I think, considering the right s and wrongs of torture, if you have a prisoner, and you want information which he is unwilling to give, how would you get it?.

[El D]

Doesn't that ignore the rights and wrongs of torture?

[bernardo]

No way! It is totally unacceptable, totally unreliable as a method of getting useful information, and totally negates the whole point of what we freedom-lovers are supposed to be campaigning for. It will only alienate people and make hostile attacks more likely.

[gary baldy]

You reap what you sow......

[brachiopod]

It's all hyperthetical really, as the Americans, defenders of freedom and fighters against oppression, don't use torture. They merely use 'enhanced interrogation techniques'......

[jno]

we made war on Saddam because he used chemical weapons and tortured people. So how are we - with our phosphorus and our 'renditions' - better than him?

Chessman, bear in mind that information gained under torture isn't necessarily reliable; people are apt to say anything their captors want to hear. The captors will rate this as 'mission successful' because they've got a confession, but if all they've been told is rubbish, then they're actually worse off than before.

[Drusilla]

The problem with torture, as was discovered way back in Elizabethan England, and probably long before that, is the answers given by the tortured individual are the answers that stop the pain. These are also the answers the torturer wants to hear, but it doesn't make them truthful answers.
For every useful piece of information gained under torture, it's likely a mass of nonsense has been extracted by the torturers, which requires investigation and a waste of vital intelligence resources chasing 'phantom clues'.
Torture is essentially an inefficient form of intelligence gathering and is the sanctuary of the sadistic and the morally corrupt.

[Pies]

So are we saying here that the use of scopolamine or sodium pentothal are a complete waste of time as a means of extracting information and if so does anybody have any hard facts

[kempie]

Two points for Pies;

1. The definitions of "torture" include words such as pain, torment, suffering and cruelty.
Truth serums or "chemical interrogation" need not cause pain even if they are invasive and so do not fall into the definition of torture, although they may well be part of the same ethical taboo.

2. The reliability of truth drugs is hard to determine since the countries thought to use them do so in secret, and the U.S. hasn�t officially been known to conduct truth drug experiments since the Cold War, when the government dismissed them as unreliable.

[stevie_c2it]

Putting aside the �reliability� of torture as a intelligence gathering method for a moment, is it your opinion that Western countries should �turn a blind eye� as we have to �fight fire with fire�, and that �the ends justify the means�, or do you believe that actions like these will act as recruiting drives for other dissected individuals to join the terrorist ranks in response to what may be �perceived� as an unjust western war on the Islamic faith?

[johnlambert]

I agree with other ABers, people being tortured will say what the totrurer wants them to say, therefor it becomes counter productive, and, in the long run dangerous.

There are other ways to extract information without resorting to torture, our Psychological Warfare troops are not to be messed around with and they wont place a finger on you.

I was in Ney York a couple of years ago and most of their Armed Forces and Police that I spoke to are of the oppinion that a holy war is going on between Islam and the English speaking world, so stevie_c yes I do belive it has already done that.

[metagirl]

It is simply wrong - its not a necessary evil, but a plain evil. In case people here may think that regular Americans believe the same as the Bush Administration - there are movements in the US that are taking up this issue and actively lobbying their representatives in Congress and the Senate for more disclosure and accountability. A great site - http://go.sojo.net/campaign/wwjt?CFID=5841100&CFTOKEN=48211881 is Sojourners, a growing Christian lobby group with social justice principles. They are one of the groups that are campaigning against this appalling injustice.

[Chessman]

jno, I have to agree with you, i'm putting a seperate thread up on this.

[Drisgirl]

I would have thought that under the terms of The Geneva Convection prisoners have to be treated in a humane manner.I agree there is no purpose in torturing prisoners for information as I personally would believe any soldier or leader would have been trained not to divulge relevant info even at the risk of their own lives.

I realise there is a great deal of subterfuge we are not aparty to - but I believe we do in the main adhere to basic human rights.

There is actually a better alternative to 'torture' and that is take the prisoner as low as he can go and then let the 'good guy' surrepticously build him up again and earn his trust.This has been proved to very effective in extracting information.

[Drisgirl]

Convention*

[stevie_c2it]

Stevie_c2it sighs with dejection.

Have any other ABers noticed that the first answer given to a question often dictates the direction a thread goes in?
Sadly �Chessman�s� inability to understand the simple (do you agree - yes or no) part of the question has misdirected others into a discussion on the merits and methods of torture (see my previous attempt to steer the thread back to my original question), what I had hoped for was to generate (in an albeit unscientific way) way, a picture of where people stood on the �rights and wrongs� of a western country adopting these methods � ah, well.
My thanks anyway too all those who took the time (particularly those that put forward an answer, and gave a view).

[Drisgirl]

If it make you feel any better Stevie I dont think torturing people is acceptable and should not be a road we should go down.I dont not think it acceptable for the US to attempt to evade the fact they are as bad as the Islamic Terrorists by using barbaric tactics to extract info.I believe they are hoodwinking their citizens who by and large will be oblivious to this.

I hope this answer is succinct although maybe not your view.I also hope I have not missed the point (I suspect I have)

[stevie_c2it]

Stevie cheers up!

Thanks for that, as it happens I'm in agreement with you (Doh!), but I had expected to see more replies from people willing to 'turn a blind eye'. Maybe reason will prevail before it becomes an all out 'us and them' conflict!

[Drusilla]

I like the way threads drift. In many cases, the drifting leads into more interesting areas than the original question anticipated, or appeared to.
To answer your questions in a more acceptible manner,
Ques. 1- No
Ques. 2- Yes

[jno]

more briefly, then:

(a) no (From the House of Lords yesterday: "Torture is an unqualified evil. It can never be justified. Rather it must always be punished.")

(b) probably.