Is The Unilateralist Argument Now In Tatters?

[ToraToraTora]

Ukraine gave up it's nuclear deterrent in 1994. Would Russia be doing what they are if it was still in place? Discuss....

[Mozz71]

I think they probably would. Putin is the sort of bloke who would bet that Ukraine wouldn't have the nerve to retaliate with nukes.

[jno]

plenty of the countries condemning Russia have nukes. Does anyone think there's the faintest chance that they'll be used? Putin doesn't.

[ToraToraTora]

well done jno for missing the point by a mile.
"plenty of the countries condemning Russia have nukes. " what has that got to do with the price of eggs?
If your country was about to be invaded and subjugated and you had nuclear weapons would you use them to stop the invasion or would you simply surrender?

[jno]

yeah, your question is purely hypothetical, whereas mine is a firm prediction.

But just for the record: no, I don't think Ukraine would use a nuke on its own territory any more than Britain would. And if you think they'd use one on Russia in the knowledge that the Russians could use 20 in return, the answer is still no.

[ichkeria]

Exactly Tora.
In fact it’s in the heat of war when maybe you are losing - that’s when the nukes might be used as a nothing to lose option.
That said, I really don’t know the answer.
It certainly wouldn’t encourage Mr Kim in N Korea to gone up his

[ichkeria]

War is unpredictable.
Who can say who would do what

[Gromit]

Russia only regained its independence in 1991, how did it have its own nuclear arms in 1994?

[ToraToraTora]

jno: "yeah, your question is purely hypothetical, whereas mine is a firm prediction." - what planet are you on? there is nothing hypothetical about the Ukraine situation it's very real.

"But just for the record: no, I don't think Ukraine would use a nuke on its own territory any more than Britain would. And if you think they'd use one on Russia in the knowledge that the Russians could use 20 in return, the answer is still no. " - Who said anything about their own territory. Just be prepared to nuke Russian Cities, no threat any more if they believe you are serious, both sides win, no damage, it's known as Mutually Assured Destruction and it has kept the peace since 1945.

[ichkeria]

Ukraine had a huge stockpile.
The world’s third largest at the time.
It takes time to decommission. And that’s only when you gave agreed to do so.
The Budapest agreement signed by UK. US and Russia at the time guaranteed Ukraine’s safety and territorial integrity, as compensation. And pledged to come to that country’s military aid if it was attacked by nuclear weapons
So if Putin nukes Kyiv he’ll be obliged to invade himself :-)

[ToraToraTora]

gromit in 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy its nukes and join the NPT.

[Gromit]

Ukraine not Russia above.

[jno]

you could try reading all the way to the end of my post, TTT.

[ichkeria]

Talking of Budapest, even Putin’s pal Orban apparently has pledged to back whatever sanctions the EUcomes up with

[Peter Pedant]

Ukraine never had a nuclear industry for chrissakes
little discussion needed
the warheads were russian and they took them back
Jesus

[Peter Pedant]

// gromit in 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy its nukes and join the NPT.//

I thought it was "return to sender - - address unknown" - hit in the sixties
actually return to sender - address known, c/o Kremlin, Moskva

and no I amnot gonna lose sleep if I am wrong

[ichkeria]

Russia didn’t take them back Peter,
They were never Russia’s to start with, but belonged to the Soviet Union.
Russia was the first country to leave the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union’s last humiliation was visited in it by a Russian leader.
With all Putin’s nonsense now, we tend to forget that

[ichkeria]

No the weapons were decommissioned by Mr Kravchuk the Ukrainian President (presumably not personally)

[Gromit]

TTT
Were they Russian missiles?
Did it develope its own missiles between1991 and 1994.
I Amon the road so I cannot reseArch your question.

[Peter Pedant]

thanks

[ichkeria]

Russia kept the missiles on its territory.
Ukraine kept those on its territory