Russian Government Murders At Least 10 Shoppers

[ichkeria]

wounds 40 with missile strike on huge shopping centre in Kremenchuk, central Ukraine

According to the military it was an X-22 (Ukraine designation) missile fired from Tu-22 M3 bombers which took off from Shaylovka airfield in Kirov and released the weapon over Kursk

This is an actual government - member if the UNSC - committing an act of terrorism in full view of the world.
Apparently without shame.
I’m struggling to think of a precedent - before this “special military operation” began

And to boot: a big cyber attack by killnet (Kremlin hackers) on Lithuania today

Would officially designating russia a terrorist state have any practical use?

[ichkeria]

I wasn’t going to do a link but I should

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna35482

[ichkeria]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-22

[Old_Geezer]

The story is on the BBC news as I type.

[FatticusInch]

//Would officially designating russia a terrorist state have any practical use?//

None whatsoever against the current regime.

[Ellipsis]

An outrageous atrocity. It is essential that there are consequences for Russia.

[The Builder]

Rather makes a mockery of Russia being on the UNSC.

Bringing Russia under the same designation as Cuba/Syria/N.Korea/Iran is probably not going to be of any immediate "practical use", but it might make a few "dithering" states sit up and take notice of what is really going on.

Forgive my ignorance, Ich, but how far does NATO's remit go?
They act only if a member is attacked. It must be getting close to the point where some pre-emptive action is needed from NATO.

I'm thinking here of the Baltic states where the threat is palpably real.

[ichkeria]

NATO has repeatedly said Builder that it will not get involved directly but there might come a point where it might feel it had no choice.
However such a point would probably mean Russia had attacked a nato country or maybe resorted to nuclear or chemical attack and I still don’t think that this is likely.
People in Ukraine think, and I agree, that this is not a response to G7 or NATO summits but related to the deployment to Ukraine of HIMARS highly mobile long range rocket systems by the US, UK and Germany.
They said they’d retaliate by attacking “new” targets although hiring civilians is nothing new.
But it’s maybe a new method: more air launched missiles. The Kh-22 is actually an anti ship missile. Russia has apparently run low on more modern weapons and Ukraine doesn’t have any ships so …

[Old_Geezer]

In the event of a direct attack against a NATO member then all NATO members have an obligation to act forcefully to restore the status quo at the earliest opportunity. Nothing about preemptive attacks or conflicts not involving a direct attack on a member.

[Peter Pedant]

// I’m struggling to think of a precedent - before this “special military operation” began//
yeah - Iran Iraq War - way back when
a million casualties on each side
they moved onto "the war of the cities" both sides lobbed missiles into opposing cities.
and unsurprisingly this wasnt a decider

[Peter Pedant]

here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Cities

[The Builder]

Thanks for that, Ich.
So, the "danse macabre" goes on?
I feel desperately concerned for the perimeter states, particularly the Baltics.

So, Russia is effectively holding NATO at bay, leaving it free to carry on in Ukraine. Understandable, but I can't help feeling (uncomfortably) that the time is coming for NATO to widen its remit.

[anneasquith]

These people can’t even go to the shop. Surely other countries can/ must do something .

[ichkeria]

Military backing is the key.
The first 200 Ukrainian military arrive for training in the UK shortly.
The aim is to train 10,000 every 3 months.
And more heavy weaponry.
The atrocities of the last day or so only stiffen the resolve of the west. The tide ought to turn, tho it’s not guaranteed.
And as places like Kherson are hopefully liberated in the coming weeks god only knows what further war crimes will be uncovered. The stories out of there are already disturbing.

[ichkeria]

And in Lysychansk this evening 8 people were killed including 2 children, fired on as they collected water

[ichkeria]

The US senate committee approved a resolution to designate russia a terrorist state : not sure when that happened tho

[ichkeria]

Vengeance is swift: reports of a russian military base hit 30 miles behind the front lines in Luhansk oblast.
Many casualties

[davebro]

You get the feeling that Putin is itching for some response that will justify him resorting to nuclear weapons.

[ichkeria]

I doubt think putin wants to use nuclear weapons through choice.
What would that achieve?
It is the case however that the “special military operation” has gone disastrously wrong. And he’s very cross.

[Spicerack]

As with everything I hear from Ukraine, I doubt it happened.
Even if it did, it sure isn't the crime of the century you all seem to think it is.
Unprecedented? Really.

[douglas9401]

Sharp intake of breath by the assembled.