Trump The Great Dictator?

[Atheist]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/30/trump-dictator-2024-election-robert-kagan/

Any ABers think this likely? Or even desirable?

I would answer 'no' to both questions. (I've always been an optimist)

[naomi24]

Can you tell us what your link is saying please.  It's asking readers to sign in - something I don't particularly want to do.

[ClareTG0ld]

Here's an alternative link.

https://archive.ph/MMIOs

[Atheist]

Naomi. Sorry about that. It takes me to a long article without any problem. It's probably too long for you to read. It's saying that Trump is proposing to take control of the US govt system, to get revenge on people who have crossed him, to get rid of certain judges and politicos who he disagees with and so on.

The post is just there for anyone who has time and inclination to read it.

[Atheist]

ClareTGOld: Thank you.

[naomi24]

Thanks very much, ClareTG0ld.

 

Atheist, not quite sure how he'll do that but I'm one of those people who has the time and the inclination to read it.  I'll be back later when I've done that.

[pastafreak]

I've not read the article...yet. But I heard about all this weeks ago. First from my brother, then I read an article describing Trumps threatening stance towards democracy and how he's becoming authoritarian in his approach to leading. I believe he was being compared to the fascists. 

 

[naomi24]

//his every word and gesture chronicled endlessly.//

 

So what's new?   The author sounds paranoid.

[THECORBYLOON]

If folk can't access a link copy it and go to https://archive.ph/

Paste the link there and if it has already been archived, it will open the page.

If it hasn't been archived, it will go through the process of archiving which can take a few minutes as it loads the sometimes hundreds of various links within that particular page.

It can be used to bypass some paywalls.

[Atheist]

Corby; Clare already posted a link which seems to work (but so did my original)

Thanks.

[ClareTG0ld]

The author is, certainly, preaching to the converted -- I don't see for example that there's any effort to reach out to those whose support would be needed to "stop" all that the essay lays out from coming to pass. 

One thing, at least, is certain, though: Trump has become the single most important person in US politics. And he's not exactly reluctant to take on that mantle, either: in 2016, he declared -- wrongly -- that "I alone can stop this!" - this being the presumed descent into chaos and corruption, and in 2023 his rhetoric is if anything even more egotistical. The article is not wrong to point out Trump's own, repeated, conflation of his own fortunes with those of the US as a whole, treating attacks upon him personally with attacks upon America.

What a second Trump term means, though, and whether it will be as apocalyptic as the vision presented, I don't know. But anyone arguing that the article is being paranoid without any further comment misses, I think, three key things:

1. Trump's entire position since 2020 - since 2015, in fact, is that he cannot lose an election legitimately. In 2016, the vagaries of the Electoral College worked in his favour, meaning that his defeat in the popular vote didn't matter, but make no mistake, he was already saying at the time that the election was rigged against him. 

It's important to stress that this is entirely false, and that neither the 2016 nor 2020 results were affected by anti-Trump fraud, or "rigging", or any other conspiracy. 

2. On the other hand, the fact that Trump is wrong is making no difference at all: many believe him, and many people in powerful political positions number among them, and are ready and willing to ensure that Trump is not "denied" an election victory by "dishonest" means in future. Put bluntly, then, Trump's repeated false claims that the 2020 Election was rigged have already had the desired effect.

3. Finally, Trump's world view is obviously highly transactional in its nature. Almost every decision he's made - in foreign policy in particular - is shaped by that vision. It stands to reason that this view also shapes his perception of how to deal with rivals; and, again, if proof of this were needed, witness his treatment of former allies who have lost his favour, such as Pence and Barr.

All of this reminds me somewhat of Jim Hacker's predecessor as PM: "In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge!". Only, this time, it's dialled to 11 - and taking place in the real world, rather than a sitcom.

[Stableford]

I wish I was as optimistic as Atheist.  I think the last Trump administration made many good decisions.  However, I believe the man himself is corrupt, obsessed with himself, and unfortunately is a distraction to what a President should be, a force for whats good in this world, nd upholding the rights, interests and freedoms of all the American people.  It's sad that its looking like another binary choice between two elderly, corrupt and divisive figures yet again.  The Republicans would be better to get a new pair of hands for their nominee- Nikki Haley would make a fine President.

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, //But anyone arguing that the article is being paranoid without any further comment misses, I think, three key things://

 

I presume you're referring to me and I don't believe I missed anything.  An article that bangs on about Hitler, Napoleon, etc., isn't - in my opinion -  worth the effort of a detailed response.   The man sounds scared out of his wits - and he's doing his best to scare everyone else out of their wits.

[nicebloke1]

Some folk will do and say anything if they think the limelight is off them. Trump needs some urgent help regarding his mental state without doubt.

[ClareTG0ld]

The key point of that quote is "without any further comment". I don't deny that the tone of the article is extreme, and - at least as long as it's discussing only a potential future - feels overstrong. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing at all to discuss about what a potential second Trump term will mean; about how Trump's nature and past record might influence the shape of such an administration; about how Trump might act in victory, especially given all the rhetoric directed at both his longstanding foes and his former friends, and so on.

Take just a single point, for example, namely the question about whether the 22nd Amendment would be sufficient to stop Trump from pursuing a third term. It might be thought that there's no question at all: the Constitution imposes a two-term limit, "end of", and in any case Trump would be as old in 2028 as Biden is today, so time might also work against him.

But there are multiple aspects of this that are worth consideration. I won't go into them - the article, anyway, touches on many - but the idea that there's nothing at all to discuss in just that singular question, namely "Would Trump willingly abide by the 22nd Amendment?", is simply mistaken.Trump's past actions, past words, and past character, should at least suggest that the answer is far from a resounding "yes".

[THECORBYLOON]

ATHEIST, I know the alternative link was provided, I was explaining how others can do the same.

[tomus42]

I have no doubt that he'll become America's Putin if he's given the chance.

The democratic system over their has shown itself to be quite weak. It relies on officials at all levels doing the right thing - e.g declaring that the person with the most votes won the election. However, there seems to be nothing to stop them just deciding they aren't going to do that if they don't want to.

What the previous election showed is there are an awful lot of people willing to be that corrupt.

 

[pastafreak]

My brother...just the voice of one American mind you...wrote this about a month ago. He's a keen follower of politics, and reads many sources.

//...I am worried about the next election. The 2020 election was important, and most of us, Americans, thought ah- we made it. We can breath a sigh of relief. Not true! Even with certain win by Biden, Trump is more a threat then ever! He is going say he has won even if he loses. His plans are being set in motion take over departments and agencies of government so that they will be loyal to him. The justice department, the fbi, will do as he wishes. He’s giving speeches at his rallies where he refers to democrats and liberals as “vermin”. His speeches and online posts echo the things said by hitler and Mussolini! Basically he wants to get even!!//

// In three years, will this be a country you’d want to visit? Will we have, what many people said is coming,- a civil war? Will we be a democratic people? Or will we be living under authoritarian rule?//

A similar article to today's...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/us/politics/trump-rhetoric-fascism.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20threat%20from%20outside%20forces,and%20disdain%20for%20democratic%20ideals.

 

[JDavis]

Stableford, 

Surely there is no moral equivalence between Biden and Trump?