Does Vlad Have A Point?

[youngmafbog]

In no way am I supporting this tyran before the usual start but in saying "There is no democracy in the West" does he have a point.

For the UK out PM was not elected(not even by his own Party it was a coup)

We have just crowned a new Head of State (by birthright - no election there)

The HoC is unelected (So zero democracy there)

The Civil Service just does what it wants and certainly doesnt serve the people who pay its wages (Unles you are part of the MetroLiberal elite)

So does he have some sort of a point?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/putin-says-there-is-no-democracy-in-the-west-after-sham-election/ss-BB1k4UCi

[ClareTG0ld]

No.

[ToraToraTora]

Well the key difference is that despite curiosities in the way the system works. The government can be voted out and probably is about to be. The monarch can be removed too if enough people want it and nobody needs to test gravity to do it.

[ichkeria]

"For the UK out PM was not elected(not even by his own Party it was a coup)"

Some mistake surely? Sunak was elected by elected MPs and as you well know (putting my Ted Hasting voice on!) we live in a parliamentary not a presidential democracy.  

"The HoC is unelected" - eh?

The other stuff?

It's classic Putin classic Russia 

"I'm a ***: you know I'm a *** but you aren't perfect either". It's worth remembering Churchill's quote about democracy. 
 

I agree what we shouldn't always fall back on the "others are much worse so let's just sit back" complacency but Putin and his gangster state have nothing to teach us when it comes to "democracy" and certainly no right to preach 

[ichkeria]

From a live BBC link:

"President Putin has mocked democracy in the United States following his inevitable landslide victory in Russia's presidential election, which is tightly controlled by the Kremlin. 

When Russian election officials said results gave him more than 87% of the vote, Putin said Russia's democracy was more transparent than many in the West.

Taking questions from reporters, he hailed Russia's presidential campaign as far more advanced than the US, citing Russia's use of online voting, which officials said brought in eight million voters.

Putin had earlier been filmed performing a single keystroke to exercise his democratic right.

"It's transparent and absolutely objective," he suggested, "not like in the US with mail-in voting... you can buy a vote for $10".

In particular the point about online  voting is nonsense. It's the exact opposite of transparent 

[davebro3]

//The Civil Service just does what it wants and certainly doesnt serve the people who pay its wages//

That's just WRONG!

We don't elect leaders - we elect constituency MPs who debate & decide legislation in the HoC. The parties decide who they want as leader. It's not a presidential system.

Paper voting is by far preferable to on-line voting (Horizon anyone?). Seeing the votes being counted under close scrutiny is very transparent.

[tomus42]

No.

// PM was not elected(not even by his own Party it was a coup) //

We elect the government, not the PM.

//We have just crowned a new Head of State (by birthright - no election there) //

Purely symbolic. They have zero political power in practice. We could get rid of them if we wanted to.

//The HoC is unelected (So zero democracy there)//

You mean HoL? Fair point. Should be replaced.

//The Civil Service just does what it wants and certainly doesnt serve the people who pay its wages (Unles you are part of the MetroLiberal elite)//

Right whinger claptrap.

The key difference of course is that it's possible to criticise the government, and seek to replace it without being murdered.

[youngmafbog]

Yes tomas, HoL.  apolofies

//The Civil Service just does what it wants and certainly doesnt serve the people who pay its wages (Unles you are part of the MetroLiberal elite)//

Right whinger claptrap.

Ever worked for them?

[youngmafbog]

//The government can be voted out and probably is about to be//

Yes but what choice is there.  Two cheeks of the same backside.

 

[youngmafbog]

//The key difference of course is that it's possible to criticise the government, and seek to replace it without being murdered.//

Yes, but that is not the question is it.  I am not comparing Russia with the West it is just the statment about the West's democracy. 

Is it really as good as we think?

[tomus42]

//Ever worked for them?//

No, but I don't think I need to have in order to recognise claptrap. The civil service is pretty big. Does your description apply to all of it?

[Stableford]

No, he doesn't have a point.

[tomus42]

//I am not comparing Russia with the West it is just the statment about the West's democracy. //

To know if it's any good, you have to compare it with the alternative.

We only have either our version of democracy or authoritarian dictatorships.

Although there are always things that can be improved, I'm pretty sure I know which system I'd rather live under.

[Untitled]

definitely not the best person to make that criticism but i think there is a lot of truth in it yes. there are extremely serious flaws in western democracy which effectively hand control of our representative instititions to an extremely narrow band of people with an extremely narrow set of ideas... often ones that are not necessarily those of the people they purport to represent! 

it is important not to take lectures from the likes of putin about democracy but it is also important not to be complacent about the "superiority" of especially the american system which is often extremely cruel and plutocratic. 

[Untitled]

"To know if it's any good, you have to compare it with the alternative."

but it's not a binary choice between "be like Russia and China" or "be like we are right now"... the western model has changed enormously in the last 60 years and there are huge variations within it.

[ichkeria]

We know our system isn't "perfect". If you actually look at what Putin said tho it is complete nonsense.

I don't actually know why such a fuss is being made about this particular "election": it is exactly like all the elections Putin has "won".

[youngmafbog]

//No, but I don't think I need to have in order to recognise claptrap.//

Ah, I see.  Not a clue then just reiterating what someone down the pub told you.

This is one reason I will be glad when labour get in, the civil service will do exactly the same to them unless they agree with what is being done and that wont be the case most of the time.

[ichkeria]

My criticism of the Lords is just that there are too many of them. They are primarily a scrutising body with no de facto executive or legislative power. If they were to be elected, there is a danger of conflict between the two houses, as the Lords might claim democratic mandate. Look at the US for example, with its too elected federal houses.

[ichkeria]

//No, but I don't think I need to have in order to recognise claptrap.//

Ah, I see.  Not a clue then just reiterating what someone down the pub told you.

I HAVE worked for the Civil Service, on the other hand, and I also recognise claptrap.

[youngmafbog]

Ick, I'm not making a fuss about Russia's facade.

I am using what he said to prompt debate.

Much how it pains me Untitled gets it entirely and I will award the BA.

[ichkeria]

"I am using what he said to prompt debate."

I realise that ymb :-) Anything to get away from the constant trolling of you know who.

However, I would contend that contrary to what Untitled claims there is nothing at all in what Putin claims. Like I say, it's the gangster merely complaining that nothing is perfect,: who knew? In Russia everything IS perfect, or else!

It amused me that they claimed to have an "exit poll". Isn't that where someone asks you who you voted for... In Russia's case probably a very burly bloke with a firearm. In reality I would suggest there were no exit polls. The only "exit" poll is the one that exits you out of a window ...