You Couldn't Make It Up

[drmorgans]

 

Is the Home Office totally useless or is it trying to undermine the government's "flagship" plan (or both):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68924392

 

[Peter Pedant]

hi dave bro - the topic about deportation was: if it had connotations of being fun - it hasnt

the topic about Post office horizon is that there are days of connotations about words - "helping the SPMs", when in fact they weren't helping, they were planning the opposite

the two topics had the following in common, lying dissimulation, deception, more lying, misleading statements, meaning something else.  - am I being rude in asking - capeeshy?

 

[New Judge]

“Not true - the cops stop many motorists for minor offences which are not "a crime".”

Any motoring offences that the police might stop a driver for are criminal offences. If they go to court they are heard in the Magistrates’ Court and will result in a criminal conviction.

There are some “decriminalised” driving offences (parking, box junctions, bus lanes and so on). The police do not detect or prosecute these – they are usually the responsibility of the local authority. 

“So if stopped for some minor thing you would be held pending identification.”

No I wouldn’t. I would provide my details which the police can check and once they are satisfied that I have given genuine information I would be on my way. Only if they suspect I was telling porkies might I be detained. There is no requirement to produce identification when stopped by the police. As far as producing a driving licence when stopped whilst driving, the Road Traffic Act provides a specific defence when the driver is unable to produce his licence at the roadside.

Rosd Traffic Act Section 164(8):

In proceedings against any person for the offence of failing to produce a licence it shall be a defence for him to show that—
(a)within seven days after the production of his licence was required he produced it in person at a police station that was specified by him at the time its production was required.

In practice that procedure (where the officer provides the driver with a “producer”) is rarely used these days. The police have immediate access to DVLA records and can quickly establish a driver’s credentials.

[Khandro]

NJ //

"NJ, So are you saying you only carry your driving licence when you are actually driving a car?"

I don't carry it at all unless I'm going to be driving and away from home for longer than seven days. It stays in the safe along with my passport. I simply don't need to carry it.//

So what do you carry? What would you produce to identify yourself? 

I'm not suggesting identity cards for everyone, but that everyone should be able to produce some form of I.D. which would be helpful to the police etc.

I never leave home without a wallet packed with plastic cards for banks, driving licence (German with mug shot), health insurance (ditto). Are you walking around wearing only swimming trunks ?

 

[New Judge]

"So what do you carry? What would you produce to identify yourself?"

I wouldn't necessarily produce anything. I carry credit cards and the like. But not to identify myself. I'd carry my D/L if I needed it (say to hire a car, for instance). But there is no requirement to produce proof of identity on demand to the police in the UK so I don't carry things that I don't need, especially documents which, if lost, are aggravation and costly to replace.

Maybe on the Continent it is customary (or maybe compulsory?) to provide proof of identity when asked. Here in the UK it is not - and long may it stay that way.

I'm very unlikely to get up to anything that would require the police to check my identity and if they felt the need they can check the details I give them via various systems that they have access to. They don't need my help.

[Khandro]

NJ ; //Maybe on the Continent it is customary (or maybe compulsory?) to provide proof of identity when asked. Here in the UK it is not - and long may it stay that way.//

The illegal immigrants are savvy to that fact, that is why they ditch their passports and any ID they have into the briny before landing.

And btw, what if you are (God forbid) badly injured in a serious accident & the authorities are unable to ascertain who you are ?

I'm grateful to this this topic, because I've just checked what's in my wallet, -which I haven't done for some time - & I have at least 3 methods of identification, all in the credit- card format; my German Residence Permit, which I'd forgotten not only contains my photograph, address, date & place of birth, it even has my height & eye colour !

I've also got my driver's licence & my health insurance plastic cards, both with mug-shots, similarly so has my wife, and we fail to see any problem. 

It seems to be an issue only for a certain section of the British public whom it horrifies, including I remember, Boris Johnson last time the subject was raised - though perhaps the present immigration crisis is leading him to change his mind. 

[davebro3]

ID cards may not help greatly in policing the UK but if you've got nothing to hide I don't see why you would object.

Like Khandro I have my driving licence, bus pass, several bank cards & maybe other stuff in my wallet. It's no big deal, I'm not exactly staggering under the weight!

[New Judge]

I think both of you are somewhat missing my point (or perhaps I haven’t expressed it too well).

I don’t go out deliberately denuded of anything that will show my identity. I usually have bank cards of some description and perhaps a travel pass as a minimum. But I don’t carry them with the express purpose of being able to prove my identity; I carry them for the purposes for which they are designed – e.g, paying for things or the ability to travel on a bus or train.

There is no requirement in this country to prove one’s identity on demand to anybody. Of course there will be occasions when I may need to do so – for example if I’m opening a bank account. Though even that I now usually do online and electronic checks are made. But on those rare occasions I will make sure I have the necessary documentation with me. Young people may need some proof of age to buy age-restricted goods.

“It seems to be an issue only for a certain section of the British public whom it horrifies,..”

The idea of carrying proof of identity is not an issue for me and it doesn’t horrify me. I simply don’t routinely do it as there is no need. What worries me is that some people believe that they will be held by the police until they can prove who they are. The police are perfectly capable of checking someone’s credentials without any assistance from that person other than for them to provide their name, address and DOB. Of course if you provide false details you may be held up for longer than if you’ve told the truth, but I have no intention of lying to anybody who has a legitimate reason for wanting to know who I am.

“And btw, what if you are (God forbid) badly injured in a serious accident & the authorities are unable to ascertain who you are ?”

I will have the documents I mentioned above. I will also have a phone with three "ICE" numbers on it. 

“ID cards may not help greatly in policing the UK but if you've got nothing to hide I don't see why you would object.”

They would not help at all with the issue which started this off (people present in the country who have no right to remain here).  Frankly I can’t see what they would help with, but they may help those with neither a passport or a driving licence. But I’ve no objection to holding an identity card, if that’s what the government wants me to do, so long as it is provided free of charge. What I would have objection to is the requirement to carry it with me and to produce it on demand. I look at the "if you've nothing to hide...." philosophy somewhat differently. I have nothing to hide. But I don't intend proving that to anybody who might ask.

[Khandro]

The unexpected consequences of being ID less;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1895082/Boris-Johnson-ID-voting-local-election ; 😄