The difference between a lie and an untruth

[Trojanfarce]

Just came across this article whereby Stephen Byers has been acquitted of lying but told to apologise for telling an 'untruth'. What's the difference?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4665498.stm

[gary baldy]

I was going to post exactly the same question trojanfarce!

I' m wondering if i stood up in court and told some 'untruths' i would get away with it?

I think we were told some untruths about WMD aswell.
I also think the Labour manifesto had some untruths in it aswell especially about top up fees.

I'm going to try this one on my missus.
"I didnt lie to you darling about where i was - i just told an untruth and thats alright!"

Stephen Byers is a snidey, two faced, arrogant , smug lying b*****d!
And thats the truth!

[Trojanfarce]

Well said Gary, cos it certainly ain't no lie!!

[andy-hughes]

It's a matter of semantics - a 'lie' is telling something that you know to be untrue, an untuth is something that you believe to be true, but is not true.

For example, if you find someone who believevs that the earth is flat, they will tell you that the earth is flat. That is not a lie, because they believe what they say to be true, but it is an untruth, because what they are saying is not true. Hope that's clear - it is a very fine distinction, but an important one - especially if you are a politician!

[WoWo]

I can see how he can be made to apologise, if he said what he did based on the fact that this was the truth as he knew it then I can't see how he has done anything wrong.

I'm not defending / supporting him just interested why he should say sorry for doing nothing wrong?

[Grunty]

Of course if he was a better politician, he could have told deliberate lies resulting in thousands of innocent deaths, and still not get into trouble.

[jake-the-peg]

Maybe the point is he ought to have been aware that what he was saying was untrue.

A bit like if I submit an incorrect tax return believing it to be true.

Ignorance is not necessarilly a defense.

Unless you're the Prime Minister and your acting on a dossier on WMD of course

[mike1222]

andy, according to the dictionary definition you are wrong in what you say. An untruth is variously described as a lie, a deception, a falsehood. There is no distinction between a lie and an untruth.

You are defining a misapprehension or a misperception, and not a lie or untrurh.

Gary told the truth about Byers when he calls him a smug lying barsteward - and that's not a misperception!!

Byers is a politician and politicians of all parties lie (or are untruthful!) habitually, and I cannot for the life of me see why people vote for them. Surely people are not gullible or daft enough to believe them!!

[gary baldy]

Despite what i said i actually agree a bit with AH.
In politicians terms and not in the dictionary sense i would say an untruth is how AH describes it.
I'm playing the devils advocate here - i dont agree with it - a lie, is a lie, is a lie.
Cabinet ministers are the tip of an invisible iceberg and are 'fed' information that they should, but dont, verify.
I have no respect for Byers and on previous performances i stick by what i said about him and this incident sums him up -but i can also slightly see where AH is coming from.

[bernardo]

A lie is a statement which is known or believed by the speaker to be untrue, and is stated with the intention to deceive.

An untruth is a statement which is untrue. It is only a lie if the other conditions are met.

[bill barlow]

Just to put you all right. The dictionary definition of a" lie"is an" untruth". Legally to lie there has to be a motive. Byers says he can,t remember why he told an untruth ?? Therefore an "untruth" is declared. But as for Blair????

[jake-the-peg]

Sorry Bill I'm going to have to put you right :c)

the OED definition of an untruth is not "a lie"

http://bbcwords.oed.com/cgi/entry/50272290?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=untruth&first=1&max_to_show=10

(OED is free at the moment via the BBC )

whereas a lie has an intent to deceive

http://bbcwords.oed.com/cgi/entry/50132883?query_type=word&queryword=lie&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=0chb-0hck1k-138&hilite=50132883

so a lie is an untruth but an untruth is not necessarilly a lie!

[mike1222]

We will have to agree that even dictionaries differ in their interpretations and definitions!

Bottom line is that he is a politician, therefore he is a liar.

[Grunty]

Not quite, mike. A politician is only a liar if you can see his lips moving.