In theory,

[chazza]

Someone is in a shop and pays by chip and pin, and the person behind him in the queue can see what his pin was. The person behind him snatches the wallet or handbag outside the shop and clears out the person's bank account, would banks offer any protection or compensation?

This is following a discussion in work

[noxlumos]

There's one better than that, I was in a que the other day and a very old lady 3 people in front of me, pulled a little bit of paper out of her purse and asked the lad behind her if he'd type the number into the keypad as she'd "forgotten her glasses".He looked very awkward and pointed out that she shouldn't really do that but she replied by saying "well how am I supposed to buy anything then?" so he did it.Muggers must have thought it was Christmas come early when they introduced this.It's a dangerous and stupid system.

[purpose]

I agree.

I heard yesterday on the local radio station that there was a growing problem with teenagers taking their parent's card - having found out the pin - and going into shops to purchase items. If a 14 year old looks 19 and simply has to hand over the card and press a few numbers, no one is any the wiser.

[purpose]

Sorry chazza, that doesn't answer your question... i was just getting my rant off my chest!

[Loosehead]

It's much safer than the signature system in terms of fraud opportunites. It does though mean that if someone finds out your pin they have to mug you for you card.

What is stupid and dangerous is not being able to remember a 4 digit number, you can change it to your birthday for Christ sake! Just be careful when typing in the number.

[noxlumos]

Well loosehead lets just hope you can remember your birthday when you are about 90, or even realise you can change the pin number. Some elderly people and some vulnerable people have had really big issues with this, it's not good enough to just denegrate them and write them off as stupid. I must have seen dozens of people's pin numbers standing in ques as must hundreds of muggers. It's ill thought out and absurd and I hope they remove it very soon as you are the first person I've heard say a good word for it.

[jno]

Loosehead I'm not sure about fraud - I posted on a thread just below this one to say I'd heard the main beneficiaries of the C&P system were the card companies, because it reduced their legal liabilities. Any idea if this is true, or if there are statistics to show it has indeed reduced fraud?

[undercovers]

the system was not designed to keep us safer, as jno says it was designed to protect the interests of the card issuers - if fraud takes place with the use of the chip and pin system the card company will not refund (as they would have done had fraud been committed with the signature system) as it is the card users responsibility to protect their pin number and insure that others cannot use it.

[SaxyJag]

Noxlumos, you have good point. Not everyone can remember a PIN, even when it's their birthday. Elderly, learning disabled - even my dippy dyslexic mate who has a PhD!

To answer your question, Chazza, I believe the onus is on the victim to inform the bank and police as soon as possible. Anything that leaves the account before the bank are told to freeze it is the responsibility of the account holder. Not sure whether they'd hold you responsible if anything left between you telling the police and telling them though. Unless you've been injured, best to tell the bank first.

[Loosehead]

I take your point Noxy, yes perhaps I'm a bit harsh. I think though for 95% of users it's a better system. There are of course some who will find it a problem. I was slightly irritated by your claim it was stupid because it is not appropriate for 100% of users. No I'm not having a go at pensioners et al. Now I'm the last one to compliment the EU generally but in this area they've led the way.

jno, we have been told in the lead up that chip cards are much more difficult to clone. We where also given a lot of stats about potential fraud prevention. I'm pretty sure the figures are generally better for chip and pin.

[jake-the-peg]

I have to say I agree with Loosehead (Did I just say that in the News forum?)

Even your dyslexic friend should be able to remember 1111.

Nobody ever checked signatures it was absolutely ridiculous. Chip and pin has been working in France for 20 years and they seem to manage OK.

Maybe they're just clever than us?

[Loosehead]

You've said it now Jake, no going back!

[sp1814]

Another point - when you take money out of your account from a cash machine, people tend to stand a couple of feet back from you. In a shop, your PIN number is much more visible, which I think, leads to decreased security (when there are thieve about).

The answer is fingerprint recognition software.

Then of course, they'll probably cut your thumbs off to rob you.

[youngmafbog]

The little old lady could always use cheques at the till loosehead

[joko]

you are all being ridiculous!

There is an inch high plastic strip along the edge of the keypad - a whole inch! - surely this is adequate to prevent anyone under 3foot tall seeing over the top at the numbers you press! Tcoh!
Come one guys, the manufacturers have clearly done all they can to protect the privacy of the users - you can even angle the machine towards you by a centimetre or two ensuring anyone watching has to read numbers slightly sideways and would never be able to rearrrange the numbers 90 degrees in their heads to work out what you are pressing.

I know the shop assistants will also often present the keypad to you in full view of the queue behind and look at you as though you are some kind of weirdo if you make any sort of attempt to conceal your pin, but hey, these people are trained staff and know best.

god, this knee jerk namby pamby reaction is just typical of this site and I am not going to come here anymore - well, for a week or so because I am so outraged.

its PC gone mad I tell you!

I blame davina macall

[Oneeyedvic]

2 quick points:

Firstly, DO NOT change your pin to your birthday as Loosehead suggests - it is the most obvious thing to do, and since the majority of people keep their driving licence (which shows your birthdate) with their credit cards, a robber/mugger will have a field day

Secondly, the number 1111 will not be allowed by cards as it is 'too obvious'. If you don't believe me - go try it.

[Loosehead]

I wasn't suggesting that Vic, what I meant was you can use an easily remembered number. I agree you should not use your birthday.

[Loosehead]

Only one thing to say YMB, aaaarrrrgggghhh

[!ightoftruth]

Well im very glad chip and pin came in because i have never been able to replicate my signature because theres always variations in my handwriting so i am very much for chip and pin.

[ugly_bob]

Makes no difference to me really, I can understand why some people don't like it though.

To add to the bit about decreased liability, Shops can still accept signatures, but they are now liable if fraud occurs when a PIN is not used.

Not sure who's gonna pay the millions stolen via Shell stations

[stellaqueen]

I only received my chip and pin card last week - i was very happy with my old card which had an electronic signature and a photograph. I got the card whilst at uni for added security. I feel that that was the better way as the card was (well meant to have been) checked for the name and the photo just proved it was me.

I worked in a shop whilst at uni (asda) and was there when they first introduced the chip and pin system. I had numerous amount of people who would put there card in and then the number and upon completion i would take the card out. The amount of times that i took the card out and it said mrs somebody when it was obvious the customer was not a mrs it was a mr was unbelievable!!! but nothing could be done as the interaction had been completed.