12 yr-old with his arms blown off

[DavidUK]

The 12 yr-old boy with his arms blown off (and his parents killed) reported on the news last night - we 'the allies' did that!! And I can't stop thinking about it. Is that a price worth paying? I don't believe he would think so. I wonder if Bush, Blair and all other warmongers would be so keen on war if they had their arms blown off and families killed? I am very very angry. Saddam may be a brutal monster but we are no better when we do things like this.

[rekstout]

It is horrific - that's war - better one boy with no arms than entire villages gassed to death. Omelettes and Eggs I'm afraid.

[Miss Zippy]

I too was appalled and very angry when I saw pictures of this boy in yesterday's news and especially when I read (according to Evening Standard) that the boy has said he wants to commit suicide. I'm a grown woman and don't know if I could cope with losing my family in one fell swoop and losing my limbs to boot. Whilst I can understand the views expressed above, that we are hurting a few to save many, it it just too big a sacrifice for me to stomach.

[DavidUK]

Thank you, Miss Zippy. My heart bleeds for that boy, and for the many others that we don't know about. Statements like "It's horrific but that's war" and "it's a tradegy but..." make me sick. We didn't have to attack Iraq. We don't have to bomb innocent people just in case their leader might kill others in the future. I wouldn't be allowed to go and shoot up a neighbour's house just because I thought there was a possibility that he might harm some people in the future. It's wrong - simple as that!

[rekstout]

The point is Mr Hussain has ALREADY murdered hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of his own people - fact, not supposition. He showed no sign of stopping doing this so something had to be done.

Sitting idly by on one's hands is not a reasonable option. Have you ever seen the images of the injured and killed at Halabjah - equally horrific I assure you. By sticking our heads in the sand we would be responsible for the deaths of millions more and would be no better than the regime we are now trying to oust. It takes courage to oppose violence but it takes more courage to fight despite ones pacifist feelings when it is right and proper to do so.

I have to add that I dislike Mr Blair in all other aspects but in his position on this war I applaud him and what he has personally and politically sacrificed to do what is right.

[comloulou]

DavidUK I think we all feel terrible for that boy, the woman wailing for her dead son, the soldiers blown apart by missiles and we all agree it is a horrific price to pay but this isnt about a man who 'might' hurt people in the future. This is about a regime that rapes and murders at will. Its a regime that as recently as a week ago was killing little boys and girls as punishment to their parents for siding with the allies. This is about a man who has gassed murdered and tortured his way through 30 years living in luxury and privilidge while his people starved. Yes it has been a dubious road to war but we're there and things are going to start to get very much better.

[Miss Zippy]

For whom exactly are things going to "start to get better" I wonder? And will we now be going in and liberating other people from similar oppressive regimes, or is this just a one-off because we had something to gain and/or old settles to score etc? It's sad in itself that the fate of this boy, and countless other like him, are dismissed so easily by us all.

[Worker]

It's so easy to criticise when we're thousands of miles away and sitting in comfort isn't it? I wonder if DavidUK and Miss Zippy would feel the same if their loved ones were tortured, raped or gassed to death? Of course it's a tragedy about that little boy but how many other 'little boys', how many women, how many men can be saved by the allied intervention? War is gross, murderous and obscene but sometimes the only answer. When remembering the victims of war please add a thought to those who chose to face those ghastly faces of war quite voluntarily.

[Miss Zippy]

You wonder if I would feel the same if it were my family that were being tortured and raped? That's like me asking of you, after SH has dropped a bomb on your town, in retaliation for our troops invading Iraq, killing half your family and maiming the other half, "Was it worth it?". Fortunately, we have the relative comfort and security of knowing that that is highly unlikely to happen, hence we have the luxury of asking these hypothetical questions and coming out with these rhetorical statements.

[seaoil]

And also lets not forget Saddam did the gassing in 1988! If Bush et al were all about saving innconet lives how come the tanks didnt roll then and there? It was only when oil rich Kuwait got invaded did their "conscience" about the innocent start to work. You're right Miss Zippy.

[comloulou]

I dont know who Miss Zippy feels is dismissing these lives easily, I find it highly offensive that anyone could imagine that there is a single peron on this site or anywhere else who doesnt horrendous about that boy and the iraqi people. Just because some of us feel the war is a just one doesnt mean we are any less disgusted or tortured by the images we are seeing. For the record I believe things are already improving for the people in iraq who pre-saddam were educated, skilled and free and who now have the possibility of re-building their country. And I think its highly niave to think the world will sit back and let anyone, even the Americans, plunder this liberated country after everything its been through. P.s anyone who wants to can send money for the little lad to UNICEF on 08709023185

[Miss Zippy]

Sorry Comloulou, if it came across that my response was aimed at you personally, it certainly wasn't. I guess the fact that these kinds of questions cause so much friction demonstrates that we all have strong views and opinions and the fact that I'm sure many people feel frustrated because, ultimately, we are utterly powerless. The sad fact is that within a few weeks of the war ending, Iraqi civilians, such as the boy who is the subject of this thread, will be long forgotten by us. The cause of this war has been dressed up to be for humanitarian reasons, yet, as many people have pointed out, SH has been killing and torturing his people for years. We're in Iraq now for other reasons. Mind you, there's nothing like a short, sharp war to boost our flagging economy, so that's great news for us.

[PaulYukochan]

Just because not every dictator is tackled, doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing for those in iraq to have their one tackled. Just because Iraq is rich in oil, and much of the aid provided by the west will be recouped by western companies to come in and set up exporting etc facilities doesn't mean that Iraqis wont also benefit from gaining positions in the companies and living in a country that can set up an export ecomomy that will pay for it to become more prosperous. i woke up today to scenes of American troops being showered with flowers in Baghdad, I am not surprised, becasue the people are probably scared of the Americans as much as Saddam, but in 5 or 10 years time, they may feel genuine thanks towards the 'invaders'.

[DavidUK]

There are no easy answers to this. But, I still can't get my head around us killing or maiming one innocent child to save another. Is it better that we kill one child to stop someone else killing two children? It is difficult. I can only view it that we have caused that boy to have no arms and he is in hospital now unable to scratch his nose, feed himself or do any of the things that we take for granted. And if anyone thinks Bush and Blair started this war to save the lives of innocent Iraqis, they are very naive. Their only concern for loss of life is if it reduces their popularity.

[rekstout]

So why did Bush/Blair start this conflict then?

I can think of easier ways to get access to Iraq's oilfields and the cost of the conflict in financial and political terms (especially for Mr Blair) outweights the gains to be made by establishing a commercial presence in Iraq in it's current state.

[Miss Zippy]

The cost of this conflict, to the UK at least, is peanuts, relatively speaking. The war is set to cost the UK around �3bn, which, when you think it costs us �1bn each week to run to the NHS, is pocket money. Not a bad 'investment' when you think what the returns could be.

[Worker]

What started out as a serious debate has denegrated into a balance sheet. DavidUK's remark about one little boy or two little boys - we're talking about the subjucation of millions - many millions by a ruthless dictator who ruled with an iron fist and who lived in luxury while the rest of his countrymen lived in abject poverty and fear. The site of this little boy may have been horrific, but don't lets all concentrated on what's in front of our eyes; there's a lot happening beyond that - meat hooks still with fresh blood on them for one thing. I don't hear any condemnation about that, but then we didn't see it did we? Are we only to criticise what we see? Can't anyone see the bigger picture? The US are keen for the Iraqi people to form self-government and as such to reap the benefits of their own natural resource. I've yet to see any educated comment concerning oil being the reason for our involvement. That's only spread by people who have maybe a personal grudge against the US, Bush or Blair. Now we have Miss Zippy who obviously has strong views on this subject which I don't necessarily go along with, detailing the supposed costing. If we must harp on about this little boy, how much are his arms worth? Freedom of a country are above such things.

[seaoil]

Worker you're as naive as the rest. Invasions have taken place all over the world at all times. Many so-called "respectable" regimes do terrible things to their own and other citizens. Just off the top of my head Turkey invaded Cyprus- no attack. It also has a v dodgy human rights record against its own citizens, Kurds, sound familiar? Indonesia/ East Timor, no US/GB attacks there. China in Tibet. It happens alll the time. I'd love to believe this war is about liberation but that of course is nonsense. As soon as they decided Saddam was no longer any use to them, they went in. It's reality.

[Worker]

I can live with that. But all this talk about what the US will or won't do - let's just wait and see who's right. One by-product will be the increase in oil and oil revenue but it won't just go to some fat over-bloated mass-murderer to build vast palaces complete with gold taps and elegant entrances. It'll go to the people who actually own it. I suppose America will be involved because of their knowledge and technology but the Iraqis will be the main repicients.Yes, there's a lot of unjustice in the world. Does that mean we have to ignore it? Perhaps this will ring the death knell for ALL tyrants. What's that saying? All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Carry on twiddling your fingers seaoil.

[Miss Zippy]

Worker, my comment on the projected costs of this war was merely to illustrate (in repsonse to Rekstout's previous comment) that the cost, to the UK, is a relative drop in the ocean. If we have seen the end of Saddam and his regime, then I of course am happy. It is merely my own humble opinion that we did not have to go in and kill and main thousands of innocent Iraqis, not to mention the loss of lives of our own forces, to do it. But then I guess it's cheaper to hire brawn than brains (i.e. the intelligence services) to do these jobs. Plus a nice bonus of this war is that, having completely destroyed the place, US and UK companies now get the lion's share of the re-structuring and re-building work.