Are we in a "Struggle for Civilisation"?

[Loosehead]

Now cast aside your personal feelings for GWB for a minute. Is he correct? Are we in a struggle for civilisation?

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?th readID=3772&start=0&&&edition=1&ttl=2006091211 4413

[Clanad]

But, jno one doesn't have to do to much in the way of reference research to find that, for example, Osama bin Laden didn't just pop in out of the blue. He stated his fatwa establishing the current ongoing jihad nearly 15 years ago. He clearly spelled out the end goals and has pursued them since. The Twin Towers attack was only one of many... the original Word Trade Center attack in '94, I believe, only killed 6 people. the attack on the U.S.S. Cole in Yemen killed 18 U.S. sailors, the coordinated attacks on the U.S. embassies in Africa killed scores. We could go all the way back to the attack on the Marine Barracks in Lebanon which killed over 200 U.S. Marines... this isn't random, nor is it only local in nature. I usually appreciate your intelligent responses, but some one... a lot of someones have to wake up and smell the coffee. Like him or not, Bush's stated goal is to fight the jihadists in Iraq rather than on the streets of New York, Boston, or I dare say, London. The problem is, there are many, many citizens of both our countries, and others that adhere to your "I'm OK, you're OK" philosophy. Osama and his ilk can kill thousands with just a few dedicated soldiers. So far, so good, but to think we are safe because there hasn't been yet another attack, is fool hardy, in my opinion...

[Clanad]

And to jump79... a majority or even close to one isn't neccessary for evil men to accomplish their desires. By the most reliable count there are 1.2 billion (with a B) Muslims in the world. If only 1% are dedicated terrorists bent on your destruction then there are over 1 million of them. They are dedicated... they are motivated and their life outlook is entirely different than yours or mine. Women are property and can be dealt with as such... life is cheap, so yours doesn't matter a whole helluva lot to them. Can you, in your wildest imagination, see yourself grabbing the hair of a trussed and bound captive and, with a large butcher knife sawing off their head, (forgive the clarity) all the while hearing them scream with blood spurting everywhere? They do and by most accounts they relish it and are accorded honors for carrying out such executions. The U.S. went through an isolationist movement after WW I and was late coming to the table for WWII... we dare not forget that lesson of history... again, in my opinion...
GWB is vilified by most of the world simply because of his clarity of vision in this matter. He is singleminded in his pursuit of safety and security for his countrymen... anything less would be high treason according to our Constitution and hs oath to uphold it...

[dyli795]

There's nothing to stop Mrs.Marple doing her shoping in a burkha if she so desires.

[jno]

I understand your concern of course Clanad, but I believe America is suffering a huge and quite unnecessary failure of confidence here. You have a powerful and attractive culture built around individual liberty; why on earth have Americans suddenly started to believe it's all imperilled by the handful of a few lunatics? The death toll in the twin towers was tragic - but even if that happened a hundred times over, American civilisation would be barely dented.

And it won't happen a hundred times over. 1% of a billion is actually 10 million, not 1 million, as I'm sure you realise - but the figure is a straw man. Al-Qaeda membership is probably about five thousand worldwide. I simply don't believe such a modest number of people can bring the USA to its knees.

The one imponderable is that the war in Iraq is actually encouraging Islamic extremism there. I think Washington made a terrible mistake in moving into Iraq in search of bogus WMDs and al-Qaeda links, instead of staying in Afghanistan and finishing the job there - as a result, terrorist activity has started to expand sharply there too. Imperial overstretch, I think. But I still have not the slightest fear for the future of western civilisation.

[matt66]

You mean Bushs civilistion of uneducated fat slobby unwashed perrenially pregnant (or may be just obese) hordes lacking in any moral turpitude. You can have your civilisation anytime.

[jno]

'lacking in moral turpitude' is actually a good thing

[Clanad]

Of course it's 0.1%, jno... thanks!

[Doggy2]

Yes Clanad, Bush is the man that brings the world order and peace and we should endeavour to support him on his crusade adventures unequivocally. No questions asked! Otherwise the likes of ME will be considered lefties, liberals/ muslims. Oh how I love the irnoy of it. Oops Hang on! do the Americans undestand sense of irony. Keep on cut and pasting!

[Dom Tuk]

add a no to that and you will know what i mean.

[admarlow]

matt66 I think you would be the 1st to point out racism on AB, well isn't racism steriotyping a nation??

[popy]

'Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.'

Hermann Goering

[Doggy2]

Valid points and don't underestimate the role of the media, pressure groups/ focus groups specifically in US in eschewing the opinions of the undecided to support the war.

[maxximus]

newt gingrich, now there's a good reliable source. please, my good man. good post by mr. hughes