ChatterBank5 mins ago
Dogs
After reading the horrible article of the baby girl being killed by 2 rottweilers at the weekend I'd like to ask do you think these attacks that are happening more frequently now, are the fault of the owners or the dogs?
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I think that fatalities from dog bites in the UK are too rare to say that there's a pattern.
This case was reported last year
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorksh ire/4674685.stm
And they quote that the previous fatality had been 18 months previously.
Compared to the 30-40 accidental electrocution deaths in the UK each year I'd say that as horrible as individual cases are the overall risk is very low.
I haven't seen any statistics on the injury rate do you have any reason to think they've gone up?
This case was reported last year
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorksh ire/4674685.stm
And they quote that the previous fatality had been 18 months previously.
Compared to the 30-40 accidental electrocution deaths in the UK each year I'd say that as horrible as individual cases are the overall risk is very low.
I haven't seen any statistics on the injury rate do you have any reason to think they've gone up?
Yes a terrible tragedy, and I do not wish at this time to focus blame on any of those people involved, they have enough grief to contend with at this time.
What I do know is the fact that no matter how soft or placid a dog may seem, it is by nature a wild animal and so should not be trusted fully at any time, especially when confronted with a situation that they are not usually accustomed to.
I do believe that the owner of these dogs was abroad, and the babie's parents were looking after these dogs and their owner's pub while away. So I can only assume that the dogs were not accustomed to babies, hence this terrible tragedy.
What I do know is the fact that no matter how soft or placid a dog may seem, it is by nature a wild animal and so should not be trusted fully at any time, especially when confronted with a situation that they are not usually accustomed to.
I do believe that the owner of these dogs was abroad, and the babie's parents were looking after these dogs and their owner's pub while away. So I can only assume that the dogs were not accustomed to babies, hence this terrible tragedy.
I know what you mean. I'm not trying to put blame on them and well the dogs have been put down, its just an overall question. It is very sad but these dogs were trained as guard dogs. I myself wouldnt have any child of mine near any dog whether it be rottweiler or labrodor as I have a phobia of dogs.
It is the fault of the owners.
Dogs are unpredictable pack animals, from the smallest to the largest, all have the capacity to turn and bite, or attack.
Any owner who says "He won't hurt you ..." is expressing wishful thinking rather than fact - more accurate would be to say "He hasn't hurt anyone yet, but he may do at any time ..."
Anyone who leaves a potentially lethal dog, much less two, in any circumstance where a child could be exppsed to it is being criminally negligent.
As I say, dogs are pack animals, and the arrival of a new baby pushes the dog down the pecking order. Most dogs assimilate their shift downwards in the hierarchy, but not all - as appears to be the case here. If one dog attacks, any other(s) in the pack will join in instinctively, with the tragic consequences that have made the headlines.
When ever dog owners say "Well, he's never done that before ..." with incredulity in their voices, you have to wonder if they are aware that the have an unpredictable and potentially savage animal as a pet, and they should train them, and keep them away from children based on that fact.
Dogs act on instinct, humans should know better than to initiate a scenario where anyone, much less a baby, can be attacked.
Lessons should be learned, but rarely are. All over the country you can hear owners of large dogs telling all who will listen "Our Mopsy is as soft as a brush, he wouldn't hurt a flea ....."
Oh yes he would ...
Dogs are unpredictable pack animals, from the smallest to the largest, all have the capacity to turn and bite, or attack.
Any owner who says "He won't hurt you ..." is expressing wishful thinking rather than fact - more accurate would be to say "He hasn't hurt anyone yet, but he may do at any time ..."
Anyone who leaves a potentially lethal dog, much less two, in any circumstance where a child could be exppsed to it is being criminally negligent.
As I say, dogs are pack animals, and the arrival of a new baby pushes the dog down the pecking order. Most dogs assimilate their shift downwards in the hierarchy, but not all - as appears to be the case here. If one dog attacks, any other(s) in the pack will join in instinctively, with the tragic consequences that have made the headlines.
When ever dog owners say "Well, he's never done that before ..." with incredulity in their voices, you have to wonder if they are aware that the have an unpredictable and potentially savage animal as a pet, and they should train them, and keep them away from children based on that fact.
Dogs act on instinct, humans should know better than to initiate a scenario where anyone, much less a baby, can be attacked.
Lessons should be learned, but rarely are. All over the country you can hear owners of large dogs telling all who will listen "Our Mopsy is as soft as a brush, he wouldn't hurt a flea ....."
Oh yes he would ...
This is one of the saddest stories I've read in some time. There are people who witnessed what happened, but couldn't do anything.
These were guard dogs, and were owned by the grandparents of the child who was killed. The parents were simply looking after the pub whilst the grandparents were away.
As the investigation into the circumstances behind this tragedy is still underway, it would be a bit too previous of us to judge anyone at this point.
It may be that one of the parents didn't lock a door, or forgot to close a specific window.
To answer your question, it is absolutely not the fault of the animal involved.
These were guard dogs, and were owned by the grandparents of the child who was killed. The parents were simply looking after the pub whilst the grandparents were away.
As the investigation into the circumstances behind this tragedy is still underway, it would be a bit too previous of us to judge anyone at this point.
It may be that one of the parents didn't lock a door, or forgot to close a specific window.
To answer your question, it is absolutely not the fault of the animal involved.
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Andy, whilst I agree with parts of your answer, you seem to stray from rationality into personal feeling half way through it.
Dogs are extremely protective of members of their pack. They will very regularly step into situations where they think their pack members (in most cases the owner and their family) are in danger and turn aggressive to prevent any harm coming to them.
The wider issue of unpredictability comes when they feel threatened by strange situations or are confronted with different and unfamiliar in the absence of their own "pack" , people who they may percieve as a threat. This is what appears to have happened in this case with tragic consequences. This is in no way a justification of their actions on my part more of an attempt to convey some form of objective understanding over an issue where peoples personal feelings get the better of their judgement.
One fact to put things into perspective is that you are still more likely to be attacked by another human being than by a dog. We are, of course, wild animals too.
Dogs are extremely protective of members of their pack. They will very regularly step into situations where they think their pack members (in most cases the owner and their family) are in danger and turn aggressive to prevent any harm coming to them.
The wider issue of unpredictability comes when they feel threatened by strange situations or are confronted with different and unfamiliar in the absence of their own "pack" , people who they may percieve as a threat. This is what appears to have happened in this case with tragic consequences. This is in no way a justification of their actions on my part more of an attempt to convey some form of objective understanding over an issue where peoples personal feelings get the better of their judgement.
One fact to put things into perspective is that you are still more likely to be attacked by another human being than by a dog. We are, of course, wild animals too.
this is just up the road from me and i know the pub in question. i have to say, if you have a dog, you must never ever leave it alone with any children of any age, no matter what sort of temperament the dog has. To leave to dogs who were there as guard dogs alone with a baby is pure stupidity. My heart goes out to its parents though but lets hope that lessons are learned. Never,ever trust a dog alone with children of any age!
For the first time ever I find myself disagreeing very strongly with andy.
Trained correctly the domestic dog ( dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and do not qualify as "wild " animals in any way) should pose no threat to anyone as any experienced dog handler will tell you. If a dog has a temperament that is suspect that will manifest itself very early on indeed and will be apparent from a very young age and if so then it's owners need to take appropriate steps to ensure that the dog is either humanely euthanised or is such that it has no possibility of contact with the public in any way.
Correct training, personal ownership responsibility and pure common sense would be enough to make dog bites even rarer than they are at present ( and they are very rare indeed compared to the number of domestic dogs kept in the UK), and as ever the fault lies, where dogs do bite, with the owners rather than the dogs.
Trained correctly the domestic dog ( dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and do not qualify as "wild " animals in any way) should pose no threat to anyone as any experienced dog handler will tell you. If a dog has a temperament that is suspect that will manifest itself very early on indeed and will be apparent from a very young age and if so then it's owners need to take appropriate steps to ensure that the dog is either humanely euthanised or is such that it has no possibility of contact with the public in any way.
Correct training, personal ownership responsibility and pure common sense would be enough to make dog bites even rarer than they are at present ( and they are very rare indeed compared to the number of domestic dogs kept in the UK), and as ever the fault lies, where dogs do bite, with the owners rather than the dogs.
I was listening to a radio debate today, now i'm no expert, but what they were saying, was that if dogs like Labradors attack, they don't actually go in for the kill. but dogs like Rottweillers do, I have four living next door to me, (show dogs), and I play with them, but never, ever, take my eyes off them, if you look into their eyes, they appear soulless, no emotion.
However, we can all agree that some dogs are going to pose less of a threat than others. I mean, Paris Hilton's dog ain't going to harm anyone (unless you accidentally inhaled it).
Re: the news story...we don't know whether the child was 'left alone' with the dogs, or whether the dogs managed to break into an area where the child was being kept.
Re: the news story...we don't know whether the child was 'left alone' with the dogs, or whether the dogs managed to break into an area where the child was being kept.
You see on the news today they are saying any dog can be vicious but with my fear of dogs it is just certain types, when I�m going round a new house I always say have you got a dog and then the next question is what kind of dog, I know if it�s a rottweiler, bullmastive, pittbull, staffi or anything big like a great dane or boxer then I rarely go in unless they lock it away. Whereas with other digs I can see they are ok, some people can have the tiniest dog but if its as tiny as Paris Hiltons and still scatty I cant go near them. As I said with these dogs I definitely wouldn�t have a child near them but then they may have had her safe and the dogs got in somehow.
The landlords were the grandparents of the child, and the pub and dogs were being looked after by the baby's father and his girldfriend. Far from being 'trained' guard dogs, I suspect these two dogs had received no training whatsoever. Eye witness accounts have said the dogs were left to roam on a flat roof over the pub, and as can be seen from the following, 'guard dogs' have to be kept in strict circumstances:
(1) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a person ('the handler') who is capable of controlling the dog is present on the premises and the dog is under the control of the handler at all times while it is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.
(2) The handler of a guard dog shall keep the dog under his control at all times while it is being used as a guard dog at any premises except:
(a) while another handler has control over the dog; or
(b) while the dog is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.
(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.
The owner of a guard dog may be liable for any injury to a person under s 2(2) of the Animals Act 1971, unless they come within one of the exceptions in s 5.
(1) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a person ('the handler') who is capable of controlling the dog is present on the premises and the dog is under the control of the handler at all times while it is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.
(2) The handler of a guard dog shall keep the dog under his control at all times while it is being used as a guard dog at any premises except:
(a) while another handler has control over the dog; or
(b) while the dog is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.
(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.
The owner of a guard dog may be liable for any injury to a person under s 2(2) of the Animals Act 1971, unless they come within one of the exceptions in s 5.
I used to have a Rotti, she was the most placid and friendly dog imaginable. She was trained from a very very early age and never bit anyone or showed any agressive signs.
However would I have left her alone with a child, NO WAY.
It saddens me that people will have an even lower opinion of Rottweilers now (people would cross the road to avoid walking past when I used to walk her daily). However, there are MANY breeds of dog that if not trained correctly will attack people, and it's better for people to be aware that they can do things like this, than to keep reading horror stories after the event.
If we invite these dogs in our homes, I believe it's our fault they attack in our homes.
However would I have left her alone with a child, NO WAY.
It saddens me that people will have an even lower opinion of Rottweilers now (people would cross the road to avoid walking past when I used to walk her daily). However, there are MANY breeds of dog that if not trained correctly will attack people, and it's better for people to be aware that they can do things like this, than to keep reading horror stories after the event.
If we invite these dogs in our homes, I believe it's our fault they attack in our homes.
Rottweilers, staff, German shepherds etc are dangerous dogs - no matter how much training they have had should not be kept around kids. Children don't have sense to know that they might be dangerous and may try to pet them, climb on them etc and no matter how friendly the dog seems it could have a tooth ache or something and might just switch. I personally would not take the risk and keep dogs round children - people should prioritise which is more important their pets or children.
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