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Should a Turban be worn, on this occasion?
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When the coffins of the service personnel who had recently been killed in Iraq, arrived at RAF Brize Norton, I noticed that one of the pall-bearers was a Sikh due to the fact that he was wearing a Turban.
Since it is custom and a sign of respect to the dead, to be bare headed on these occasions, should he have removed his Turban, to respect this custom also? But if this was not possible due to his religion, should he have not been chosen in this particular instance to carry out this solemn duty?
Since it is custom and a sign of respect to the dead, to be bare headed on these occasions, should he have removed his Turban, to respect this custom also? But if this was not possible due to his religion, should he have not been chosen in this particular instance to carry out this solemn duty?
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I'm possibly not the best person to answer this since I'm an atheist who believes that it should be illegal to hold any funeral service or any form of commemoration for the dead. (I don't understand grief. I've never grieved for anyone in my life, including my parents, and I know that I never will).
Even so, I do understand a bit about traditions. It's a Christian tradition that people bare their heads at funerals. (I'm not saying that it's exclusively Christian. The tradition is probably common to other religions - e.g. Judaism? - but it still has its roots within the practices of certain religious communities). It's also a Christian tradition that people bare their heads in churches. (Even though I've been involved in many anti-Christian activities, even I observe this tradition if I visit a church to admire the architecture).
However, if a multi-faith event is held in a Christian church, it's perfectly normal for Sikhs to wear their turbans inside the church. It's not seen as disrespectful and I can't see why it should be on any other occasion
Equally, if the military wish to carry out completely pointless ceremonies at RAF Brize Norton, it would seem to make sense that they should carry out the same ceremony irrespective of the religion (or lack of it) the deceased person. It therefore seems illogical to insist that the ceremony should include practices which are specific to any particular religions.
Chris
Even so, I do understand a bit about traditions. It's a Christian tradition that people bare their heads at funerals. (I'm not saying that it's exclusively Christian. The tradition is probably common to other religions - e.g. Judaism? - but it still has its roots within the practices of certain religious communities). It's also a Christian tradition that people bare their heads in churches. (Even though I've been involved in many anti-Christian activities, even I observe this tradition if I visit a church to admire the architecture).
However, if a multi-faith event is held in a Christian church, it's perfectly normal for Sikhs to wear their turbans inside the church. It's not seen as disrespectful and I can't see why it should be on any other occasion
Equally, if the military wish to carry out completely pointless ceremonies at RAF Brize Norton, it would seem to make sense that they should carry out the same ceremony irrespective of the religion (or lack of it) the deceased person. It therefore seems illogical to insist that the ceremony should include practices which are specific to any particular religions.
Chris
Is this honestly a serious question, or are you just bored and trying to amuse yourself by posting the most pointlessly reactionary nonsense you can dream up?
Do you never think that maybe you could go outside and just enjoy being alive rather than squandering the precious gift of life on being so jaw-strainingly trivial?
Do you never think that maybe you could go outside and just enjoy being alive rather than squandering the precious gift of life on being so jaw-strainingly trivial?
You're assuming that the bloke in the coffin was Christian also. He might have been a Jew, an atheist, a Sikh himself or horror of horror what if he was a Muslim!!!?!!!!????
Maybe he was a Christian and maybe the Sikh guy was a friend of his. You know nothing about the circumstances, the people , other than "one had a turban on" so why try to stir up a non debate?
There is no disrespect being shown.Period.
Maybe he was a Christian and maybe the Sikh guy was a friend of his. You know nothing about the circumstances, the people , other than "one had a turban on" so why try to stir up a non debate?
There is no disrespect being shown.Period.
I will ignore WaldoMcfroog he isn't worth the space.
The point of my question to all others that have been good enough to engage in a more sensible debate, is the fact that we (or at least those of us that have been taught manners and respect for peoples of other cultures and religions), would without hesitation upon entering a Mosque or a Temple, remove our shoes and females would cover their heads. In fact this would indeed be demanded of us. So why isn't the same courtesy shown towards our customs, by some other faiths? Respect should be universal in a multi-cultural society, if one does not wish to embrace a particular culture, then one should not take part in their ceremony .
I do hope that somewhere out there, are some who are intelligent enough to look into this question, a little more deeply than just to just instantly dismiss it with snide remarks, a ploy often used to muffle genuine debate.
So please give your opinion by all means, but be adult enough to refrain from telling me to get a life, or of trying to stir up a non-debate, (as some have found it necessary to do), this will only cause unnecessary hostility between us. Everything is worthy of debate even the more trivial subjects, such as reality television.
The point of my question to all others that have been good enough to engage in a more sensible debate, is the fact that we (or at least those of us that have been taught manners and respect for peoples of other cultures and religions), would without hesitation upon entering a Mosque or a Temple, remove our shoes and females would cover their heads. In fact this would indeed be demanded of us. So why isn't the same courtesy shown towards our customs, by some other faiths? Respect should be universal in a multi-cultural society, if one does not wish to embrace a particular culture, then one should not take part in their ceremony .
I do hope that somewhere out there, are some who are intelligent enough to look into this question, a little more deeply than just to just instantly dismiss it with snide remarks, a ploy often used to muffle genuine debate.
So please give your opinion by all means, but be adult enough to refrain from telling me to get a life, or of trying to stir up a non-debate, (as some have found it necessary to do), this will only cause unnecessary hostility between us. Everything is worthy of debate even the more trivial subjects, such as reality television.
Touched a nerve did I? Terribly sorry.
Still, interesting that every other person to have answered has also failed to be swayed by the crude neon-lit 'subtext' and has settled for pointing out you're talking cack.
Any hostility between you and other people on this site is because you're continually trying to get debates on this exact same subject and not only are do you talk rubbish, you're also cataclysmically boring about it.
Still, interesting that every other person to have answered has also failed to be swayed by the crude neon-lit 'subtext' and has settled for pointing out you're talking cack.
Any hostility between you and other people on this site is because you're continually trying to get debates on this exact same subject and not only are do you talk rubbish, you're also cataclysmically boring about it.
Got to say i can't see the point in your question really, i'm sure that it wouldn't have crossed most peoples mind about a sikh being insensitive by just wearing a turban while being a pall-bearer. I do agree with your point about the likes or Waldo though, but he can't help being condescending and patronising so just let it go mate.
Get a room you two.
I read the question twice to absorb the mening, and personally, I think it's non-starter.
I didn't know that it was traditional to remove hats in church, possibly because the only time I've ever been to a church, as for a wedding, and I can distinct remember the women there kept their hats on.
anotheoldgit - was the bloke in the coffin a Christian?
Do you know whether the Sikh was a close friend of the deceased?
I read the question twice to absorb the mening, and personally, I think it's non-starter.
I didn't know that it was traditional to remove hats in church, possibly because the only time I've ever been to a church, as for a wedding, and I can distinct remember the women there kept their hats on.
anotheoldgit - was the bloke in the coffin a Christian?
Do you know whether the Sikh was a close friend of the deceased?
sorry anotheoldgit, not an answer for you i'm afraid, I'm just really interested by buenchicos comment about not grieving for anyone. I have never ever heard of that.
Chris, can you explain why or don't you know? Surely grieving is irrelevant to being an atheist. I hope you don't mind me asking and you really don't have to answer me, obviously,i'm just fascinated by it.
right, anotheoldgit, ive thought about your question and i dont think its really relevant in the grand scheme of things. Paying our respects is about a bit more than something worn on the head. It seems insignificant to me.
Chris, can you explain why or don't you know? Surely grieving is irrelevant to being an atheist. I hope you don't mind me asking and you really don't have to answer me, obviously,i'm just fascinated by it.
right, anotheoldgit, ive thought about your question and i dont think its really relevant in the grand scheme of things. Paying our respects is about a bit more than something worn on the head. It seems insignificant to me.
I cannot comment on the question as I see no relevance about the bearer wearing a turban or a even motor cycle helmet if it mattered. All I have to add, is wondering why Buenchico didn't/couldn't grieve at the loss of his parents. Being an atheist has nothing to do with the lack of grieving, it's a personal thing, nothing to do with religion. As he says, he doesn't understand it, and never will. In my opinion, something must have been missing from his life if he felt like that.
Traditions of other cultures are easy to misunderstand... Sikihism is one of those that the western mind little comprehends, in my opinion. Firstly, Sikh men commonly wear a peaked turban that serves partly to cover their long hair, which is never cut out of respect for God's creation. Additionally, Devout Sikhs also do not cut their beards, so many Sikh men comb out their facial hair and then twist and tuck it up into their turbans along with the hair from their heads. The dastaar, as the Sikh turban is known, is an article of faith that hasbeen made mandatory by the founders of Sikhism. It is not to be regarded as mere
cultural paraphernalia and is not comparable to other head coverings usually worn in the west. To remove it would be unthinkable and an insult to the wearer as well as an affront (in the eyes of the Skih) to those around him...
cultural paraphernalia and is not comparable to other head coverings usually worn in the west. To remove it would be unthinkable and an insult to the wearer as well as an affront (in the eyes of the Skih) to those around him...
well done clanad, didnt know there were many sikhs in USA.
If you ever have thye opportunity to go to a Sikh temple, you will be fed the most fabulous square meal. Eeveryone is fed for free and every one mucks in to prepare the meal and do the washing up. They are unbeleiveably hospitable people and you will be treated very very well as a guest in their home.
And they are considered a warrior class.
If you ever have thye opportunity to go to a Sikh temple, you will be fed the most fabulous square meal. Eeveryone is fed for free and every one mucks in to prepare the meal and do the washing up. They are unbeleiveably hospitable people and you will be treated very very well as a guest in their home.
And they are considered a warrior class.
Veneration of the dead is the most serious religious matter for any nationality and all religions. We all know that the Sikh religion is very admirable in many ways (not drinking or smoking, and honouring God, etc), and that Sikhs have been ferocious freedom fighters in our wars.....and fighting on OUR side in those wars, anotheroldgit!
At the heart of this media incited badly reported prejudiced mess are some very misunderstood principles surrounding tolerance rights and religious beliefs - all brought under attack by rights-seeking, charter-bearing people like YOU over this incident. He honoured probably a personal friend of his as well as a member of their shared regiment that they both served in, in the nicest of ways that he could honour both a friend and comrade - in his full dress uniform.
At the heart of this media incited badly reported prejudiced mess are some very misunderstood principles surrounding tolerance rights and religious beliefs - all brought under attack by rights-seeking, charter-bearing people like YOU over this incident. He honoured probably a personal friend of his as well as a member of their shared regiment that they both served in, in the nicest of ways that he could honour both a friend and comrade - in his full dress uniform.
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