Prison or deportation for criminal asylum seekers?

[naomi24]

An asylum seeker has been sentenced to 11 years for keeping a woman prisoner and raping her five times. If this man is a genuine asylum seeker who sought refuge here because he feared for his life in his own country, would deportation be a more effective sentence than a term in prison?

[Oneeyedvic]

Theland I don't think anyone has ever said that this person should be let off scot free - he has been sentanced to 11 1/2 years. What I am saying is that we should not condone capital punishment to purely one section of society.

I do think that Christians can have views on any subject they choose - personally I don't think that sending a person to his death is a particularly Christian act. If you are happy with capital punishment, then that is entirely up to you.

naomi - send them to the Isle of Wight ;-)
There is a difference between throwing foreigners out and throwing asylum sekers out. I would agree that economic immigrants should be deported back to their own country, however, I don't agree that asylum seekers (if there is a high chance of them being killed in their country) should be sent back.

[naomi24]

Ha! The poor old Isle of Wight!!

[Theland]

Oneeyedvic - I wrote two posts - one asking what a referendum would say, and the other regarding it being a subject for an M.P.
I don't believe anybody would really send anybody back to a country where they would be executed by the thought police for example.
But, the fact remains, we and our kids are at risk, by allowing these violent criminals into the country in the first place, and then foolishly believing that after a spell in prison for a crime committed here, they are going to so reformed as to not commit any more crimes.
So, what do you suggest to honour their human rights .... and ours. At present there is an imbalance.

[Oneeyedvic]

"...and then foolishly believing that after a spell in prison for a crime committed here, they are going to so reformed as to not commit any more crimes."

So do you believe a British born person will reform?

As I have stated from my inital post, i have no problem with treating criminals in a certain way - but so long as all criminals are treated the same.

An asylum seeker by definition has his life in peril if deported to his own country.

An immigrant's life is not in danger - and therefore (as previously stated) I don't have a problem with sending immigrants back - but that was not the question.

[naomi24]

oneeyedvic - a violent criminal asylum seeker's life may - and only may - be in peril if he's returned to his own country - but by allowing him to remain here you could be putting the lives of innocent people in jeopardy. If he was released from prison and then killed someone, you would have saved his life at the expense of theirs. Why, in your view, are their lives worth less than his?

[Oneeyedvic]

I don't plan on putting lives at risk any more than releasing any prisoner who has carried out a similar act.

If you are advocating life meaning life imprisonment for all prisoners then (again) that is a different issue.

[naomi24]

I've not talked about life imprisonment - that isn't the issue here. This man hasn't been sentenced to life imprisonment - he's been sentenced to 11 years - so will be released in the not too distant future. When he is released, what if he goes on to kill someone? How would you feel if his safe haven in this country cost an innocent person their life? You may wish to protect him, but what about them? They're innocent - he's not - he's a violent convicted rapist and someone the public should be protected from permanently.

[Oneeyedvic]

"he's a violent convicted rapist and someone the public should be protected from permanently. " - I really don't disagree with your sentiment - my point is though, what about the violent convicted rapists who aren't asylum seekers / immigrants - are you happy with them walking the streets after they have been released?

Also, do you believe that once a person has committed an act, they can no longer be rehabilitated?

[naomi24]

No, I'm not happy with any violent criminal walking the streets, but unlike a British/Immigrant offender whom we cannot deport, we have in this man's case the opportunity to deal with the problem permanently and it would be in the public's interest to take it.

Some can be rehabilitated I expect, but I would hesitate to trust them not to offend again.

[Oneeyedvic]

"we have in this man's case the opportunity to deal with the problem permanently " - okay - if you knew for 100% certainty that he would be sent back to his death then would you still agree to it? (and would you want it carried out before or after his sentence)

[naomi24]

It''s a hypothetical question oneyedvic, but yes, I would send him back.

You ask whether I would want it to be carried out before or after his sentence, but that makes no sense. Would I want what carried out? Deportation? He would have already been judged guilty and deportation would be the sentence - and if his life was in danger once he returned to his own country, then so be it. He's a violent criminal who had no thought or compassion for his victim when he committed that terrible act - and I'd rather his life be in danger than the lives of innocent people.

[Oneeyedvic]

So can I assume that you would be in favour of capital punishment for all British people who rape? after all He's a violent criminal who had no thought or compassion for his victim when he committed that terrible act - and I'd rather his life be in danger than the lives of innocent people.

(Can I also just say that it is nice to have a debate without it resorting to name calling etc.) - well except for the Isle of Wight ;-)

[naomi24]

We'd be sentencing him to deportation, not to capital punishment. There's no certainty whatsoever that he would be killed if he returned to his own country so capital punishment isn't the issue.

As for British rapists, as we have nowhere to send them to (and I wouldn't for one moment wish them on the Isle of Wight!) perhaps castration would be the next best thing.

Well, at least we agree on one thing Oneeyedvic - it is nice to have a debate without resorting to name calling.

[Oneeyedvic]

hang on naomi, my previous question (hypothetical) was: "if you knew for 100% certainty that he would be sent back to his death then would you still agree to it? "

Personally, my views are as follows:

People (indigenous, immigrants, asylum seekers etc) once convicted of a major offence such as rape, murder etc, should be sentenced to prison as happens now. In prison there should be a much greater emphasis on rehabilitation. Once they are released there past is forgotten unless they commit a similar act. At that point (once convicted) they should be executed.

[naomi24]

Oneeyedvic. I answered your previous question. Yes I would send him back.

I can't agree with your solution. You say if rehabilitation failed, you would have him executed. But what about his second victim? Where does she come in all this. Her life would have been endangered just because you thought he deserved a second chance. Your solution wouldn't have done her much good, would it.

[Oneeyedvic]

But even with the current situation, people once they leave prison can (and do) re-offend. At least with my way, there will only be one potential outcome.

Yes there may be another victim but I see that as almost inevitable (the only alternative I see are capital punishment immediately or life meaning life imprisonment)

[naomi24]

If he'd been deported after he'd been convicted of the first crime, another victim for him wouldn't be almost inevitable - it would be absolutely impossible because he wouldn't be here to prey on anyone else.

[Oneeyedvic]

Agreed, but what about all the other - I'm not sure of the figures but I'm pretty sure that asylum seekers rape cases would be less than 10% of the total amount of rape case.

And as said, if you are happy to sentence him to death for his crimes, why not all the others?

[naomi24]

Don't expect his victim would be too interested in statistics.

And as I said before he wouldn't be sentenced to death, he'd be sentenced to deportation and there's no certainly that he would be killed. And I've already answered the case for all the others.