Embryo Appeal

[Supernick]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6530295.stm This may have been debated before, but I couldn't find it, and it's back in the news anyway. This is a story about a Miss Evans, who was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, and had some embryos frozen with her then partner, Mr. Johnston. She is now infertile, and the only chance of being a biological mother is through these embryos. She has since split up with Mr. Johnston, and he wishes the embryo's to be destroyed. In the past, courts have ruled against Miss Evans, and this is her final appeal. What do you believe the verdict should be? Does she have a case?

[Supernick]

ummmmmm - I know that it's a dreadfully sad situation for her, but I can't believe that you really think Mr. Johnston is being selfish because he won't allow Miss Evans to have his child. Being a father is just about the most important, breathtaking thing that any man can achieve, and should not be given lightly to anyone. I for one, hope that when it comes down to me having my first child it is within a loving family unit, and I would imagine that Mr Johnston thinks the same. I would feel a deep moral responsibility for any child of mine, and I shouldn't have that forced on me against my will.
To quote Waldo who I think made an excellent point that might have been missed.

"Imagine if Mr Johnston and Ms Evans had split up. He had become infertile but found a surrogate mother prepared to 'incubate' the embryos on his behalf. "

Would you be happy with this version of events, if you had been in Miss Evans position?

[Whickerman]

Actually ummmm, she's stated openly that she would indeed have expected him to pay for the resultant child's upkeep.

[scotchollie]

How would people feel if it was the man who'd had the cancer, been rendered infertile and then wanted the child - and the mother who was objecting to her embryos being used?

I think that the right decision has been made, tough as it may be and I have every sympathy with Miss Evans who has suffered terribly physically and emotionally in all this.

She deserves to be happy, poor lady and I hope she finds peace, love and light.

[libertie]

Nothing much to add really, but I do think the right decision has been made. I do feel very sorry indeed for Natalie Evans, however I do not think Howard Johnson is being at all selfish, if he was then surely it would have been easier for him to allow the embryos to be used and then to wash his hands of the whole affair! Think he has to be respected for wanting more out of fatherhood than that!

[WaldoMcFroog]

Ms Evans' views on whether he should pay for the upkeep and have other legal responsibilities are virtually irrelevant anyway. It's not her decision, but the State's.

[Joe_the_Lion]

I actually agree with ummmmmmmmmm.

Right or wrong (this is not what is being debated) a father can disappear whenever he wants. Yes the mother can as well, but less likely.

This poor woman wants her own baby. Whilst adoption is an option, it is not the same. It is Gods will that that the baby grows in the mother, the bond is formed straight away.

Although adoption gives loving homes to wee children and fills the gap missing in adult lives, it is my interpretation that first time adopted parents do so because they are unable to conceive. Ms Evans may be able to conceive. Give her a chance.

Also, and I am not in the slightest bit qualified to know ANYTHING about genetics, I would want my child to have my genes. God forbid! Atleast with my own, I know where the bloodline comes from.

I imagine Ms Evans and Mr Johnston had a nasty split. This is his final say in getting one over on his now hated ex. Whilst I admire great revenge tactics, there is no turning back on this one. Through his selfish acts, Mr Johnston has denied a woman her womanly right to have a baby. A baby, no doubt, that will be loved and adored. It is just a shame that all the money and media time spent on this case could not go on forced sterilization on council estate scum girls who drop kids willy nilly just to get a council house and their cigarettes paid for. Babies, of which are often born criminal, will never be truly loved.

[oldfashioned]

Joe the lion, "COUNCIL ESTATE SCUM GIRLS". That's very nice that is. My 2 daughters were brought up on a council estate, one is a chartered accountant the other a teacher. btw Mr Johnston is right.

[oldfashioned]

I notice you say "gods will, presumably a christian then.Typical of christians' holier than thou attitude.Sorry joe but you really pi55ed me off with your council estate remarks.

[scotchollie]

I'm a Christian and I completely disassociate myself from Joe The Lion's prejudicial remarks which have no grounding in the Christian faith.

Christ himself ministered to the most needy, most impoverished and most desperate of people. If he were here today, rest assured, he's be right in those council estates working with the people there.

And I lived on a council estate too - and the people there were the salt of the earth.

Shame on you Joe, shame.

[Le Chat]

The very sad twist to all this is that at the time of creating the embryos, Miss Evans was offered the sperms from a donor. She and Mr Johnson decided to use his instead. Had she of used the donor's sperm, then it would never have been a question, let alone the emotional trauma to her that it is now. She may well have become a mother.
To be honest, my head agrees with the judgement but I felt so terribly sorry for her. The woman is absolutely devastated.My heart so goes out to her, it really does.
Just a quickie to Waldo...It may be the state's descision that he pays up but from someone who knows ...if a man decides he wants to avoid paying, it is really, really, really easy for him to do just that. There has been no 'state' who could make my ex husband (very rich at that) pay more than �10 a week for our lovely son, after our divorce 5 yrs ago.

[WaldoMcFroog]

True enough, but not revelant in the context of Mr Johnston's argument!

[joko]

she must be stupid if she insisted he pay!!

she knew there was a huge risk he would say no, she should have been doing all she could to convince him that if he agreed, it would not affect his life.

i suspect she wants him back in her life and she thought that this may ensure he was at least in it, even if they weren't a couple - perhaps she thought it would bring them back together...?

we also don't know why they split up - she could have destroyed him and this is his revenge...?

and even if he agreed but had nothing whatsoever to do with this woman or the child ever, whats to say he won't get a visit in 18 years - a child wanting to kow who their dad is? - he would not be able to hide or deny, because its all over the papers so a clever kid could easily find out.

it is such a thought provoking situation and i can see both sides.

[pussnboots]

If Miss Evans needs Mr. Johnsons permission to use the embryos how come he can have them destroyed without her permission.

[WaldoMcFroog]

The law states both parents must consent before implantation can occur.

[gedk]

It's a pity the law doesn't also state that both parties consent must be obtained before the embryo's can be destroyed, after all surely they belong to both of them 50/50 so why are his wishes more important than hers? I believe there are 6 embryo's - why don't they award 3 to Mr Johnston to do with as he wishes and 3 to Miss Evans to do likewise.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Because that would obviously be stupid, I imagine.

[LeMarchand]

This poor woman wants her own baby. Whilst adoption is an option, it is not the same. It is Gods will that that the baby grows in the mother, the bond is formed straight away.

If it's God's will that she has a baby, surely he could arrange for her to become pregnant without needing the stored embryos...

[Joe_the_Lion]

I think that argument is best suited on the moral issue of whether lezzas should have kids or not? Gay people (men as well) have kids. The process therefore is not natural according to Gods will and your argument.

The Lord works in mysterious ways, and he has given the woman a chance.

I maintain my opinion that the man is being an incredibly selfish and hateful human being. I really hope he changes his mind before the destruction.

[gedk]

Waldo - what's "stupid" is the fact that that poor women is losing the right to potentially have a child of her own because of her ex-partner's selfishness. It would be poetic justice if he became sterile in the future before he has the chance to have a child of his own, maybe then he will understand the despair his ex partner currently feels.