Iran training Insurgents

[Lonnie]

My view is that both Iraq and Afghanistan are conflicts we can't win, so I reckon now we should pull out of both countries, bring our troops home, take stock, and rebuild our forces.

Probably won't happen, but thats what I think.

Your views would be appreciated.

http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/wild life/article2449968.ece

[jno]

I think the two combined are beyond our forces, but it's just possible that Afghanistan alone is still winnable. Bush came so close to succeeding there where the British and Soviet empires had failed, then he blew it by trying to start another war at the same time. It may be a forlorn hope, but just perhaps, if we left Iraq, we could get Afghanistan into line.

There's an argument that it would be immoral to do so - that the US and UK have made Iraq the mess it is (Saddam was a tyrant but there was none of the chaos that's appeared since) and ought to sort it out. I'm not sure what the proper thing to do is.

I'm also not sure what the point of our armed forces is. They've failed in their current wars. Our possession of the Trident 'deterrent' totally failed to deter Iran from borrowing our sailors. We're unlikely to face any attacks from our neighbours these days, or anyone else - in the 21st century we do the attacking - so is there really any reason to have a huge armed forces budget?

[oxfordrocks]

The questions to ask are:
"WHY IS Iran training insurgents?"
(IF, in fact, they are).

Is it being done with the knowledge of the Iranian government?

If your neighbouring country was invaded by an imperialist army, wouldn't you feel slighty afraid and do whatever you could to protect yourself?

http://www.obleek.com/iraq/

[Booldawg]

Agreed - pull all troops out now. It'd be more beneficial if they patrolled our borders, fought the war against terrorism on a domestic level and rooted out illegal immigrants.

[johnlambert]

Agreed, pull out, however Lonnie as we are both ex services, you will no doubt appreciate the need for a "phased withdrawal", we simply cannot just up sticks and leave, both countries would decend into even more chaos than they already are.

[anotheoldgit]

i couldn't agree more with Booldawg we should pull our troops out, and use them to protect our own country against terrorism, after all most of the terrorists are already in this country, they were born here and educated here.

According to the link below, the violence is already starting between difference factions of the muslim faith. Could this be a glimpse into the future of this country?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshi re/6554029.stm

[kwicky]

What have we learnt from the Iraq invasion. By deposing Saddam we are about to allow a takeover by Iran with a dominant Shia population whether or not the insurgency continues. By pulling out, the process will be accelerated but surely would be better than a drip-drip that would involve more UK soldier's lives.
The moral: although dictators are reviled and may not agree with western traditions, through their brute force and ruthlessness somehow hold their country together.

[Lonnie]

Lots of interesting answers, thanks for that.

My view, is that as already stated, now, both conflicts are unwinnable, if our leaders had a decent plan, quite possibly, using 'Hearts and Minds', at the beginning, it could have been won, but not now.

To win any Guerilla or peace keeping action, you have to have the nationals on your side, we now don't have any chance of that, not in a million years.

At present, especially after the Hostage debacle, the moral of our troops out there is at an all time low, and they don't have their hearts in it. I got that bit from my nephew, whose just come back.

Your 100% correct johnlambert, the withdrawal must be phased, but come out we must,

[Lonnie]

To continue.

If we now, were to concentrate only on Afghanistan, you can bet your bottom dollar that the insugents allegedly training in Iran will go there.

I think, the commonsense action, would be to bring our troops back, take stock, retrain and re-arm, with the best kit that can be provided, money no object.

We learn from history, and if we go back to the American war of Independance, thats basically what happened then.

[johnlambert]

Yep Lonnie
I agree 100%

[jno]

who are the forces protecting us from? They're currently used almost entirely in peacekeeping or invasive situations, and without much success. The only attacks we've had have been internal - a police matter rather than a military one. I'm not suggesting winding down our forces entirely, but who in reality is going to attack Britain, and how many troops would be neeeded to keep them out?

[Reverandfunk]

We shouldn't be in either country, what gives us the right to dictate how others should live? If different factions want to kill each other let them, instead of letting our soldiers get killed. Iraq is in a worse state now than under Saddam. I have to laugh at the US, the moral guardians of us all when 30 years ago they still had segregation and slavery!!

[Kroenenbourg]

The invasion was all to do with economics. WMD? Who sold Saddam these in the first place? USA & the UK are only there for the oil. Saddam threatened to sell his oil in Euros and not dollars which would have weakened the US economy especially if all the other arab countries followed suit. Now we have another Northern Ireland on our hands. So it doesn't matter a jot what we think or say, no government is going to give up the oilfields lightly.

[Lonnie]

Close, but not quite Kroenenbourg, the U.S, are there for the oil, our toady of a PM has put our troops there for the odd droplet.