Spectator Crossword N0. 2681 By La...
Crosswords1 min ago
I suppose the debate below brought this question on...
Do you think shows like "Till death us do part" and "Love thy neighbour" in the 70's where the start of the fight against racism? ie Alf Garnett was tended to be shown as a foolish bigot and the targets of his prejuduces regularly where the catalysts of his undoings. Similarly in Love they neighbour, Eddie Booth was always the fall guy? Do you think the program makers saw this a a way of attacking the bigots by making them look the idiots. I believe that Warren Mitchel is on record as saying that he believed it was. I think the most racist sitcom of the era though was "Mind your language" where just about every non British nationality was ridiculed with caracatures, any thoughts? Please, I don't want to extend the Bernard Manning debate!
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That is a very interesting question, which I've never been able to resolve.
I used to watch 'Til Death Us Do Part' and 'Love Thy Neighbour' as a kid and just assumed that they were the products of racist writers. But as an adult I've had to re-think that position, because as you say, the main characters were fools (like Rigsby).
Is there any difference between Ricky Gervais' character in The Office and (say) Alf Garnett? If you've seen the first series of The Office, you'll know that deep down, David Brent harbours some very un-PC attitudes to gays, handicapped people and black people...but I know for a fact that I find his character funny.
Difficult...you may well be right. But then, I saw an interview with Jonny Speight, and thought that perhaps he isn't as clever as I thought.
Dunno.
I used to watch 'Til Death Us Do Part' and 'Love Thy Neighbour' as a kid and just assumed that they were the products of racist writers. But as an adult I've had to re-think that position, because as you say, the main characters were fools (like Rigsby).
Is there any difference between Ricky Gervais' character in The Office and (say) Alf Garnett? If you've seen the first series of The Office, you'll know that deep down, David Brent harbours some very un-PC attitudes to gays, handicapped people and black people...but I know for a fact that I find his character funny.
Difficult...you may well be right. But then, I saw an interview with Jonny Speight, and thought that perhaps he isn't as clever as I thought.
Dunno.
I don't know that such shows were the start of a fight against racism as such, but more likely a reflection of changing attitudes in society in general.
Certainly in both 'Love thy Neighbour' and 'Til Death Do Us Part' it was the prejudices of the racist that were being held up for ridicule, as it was with Rigsby in 'Rising Damp', where Phillip was clearly better educated and more mannered than the ignorant, repellant landlord.
SPl, I've seen Jonny Speight interviewed too, and he was quite clear that Alf's attitudes are the ones being mocked, but it was still a product of its times, and I don't think the same programme could be made today in quite the same way. I disagree with you on David Brent - again, his monumental ignorance is what's being held up to ridicule; I don't think for a moment that anyone would think he's being lauded.
Certainly in both 'Love thy Neighbour' and 'Til Death Do Us Part' it was the prejudices of the racist that were being held up for ridicule, as it was with Rigsby in 'Rising Damp', where Phillip was clearly better educated and more mannered than the ignorant, repellant landlord.
SPl, I've seen Jonny Speight interviewed too, and he was quite clear that Alf's attitudes are the ones being mocked, but it was still a product of its times, and I don't think the same programme could be made today in quite the same way. I disagree with you on David Brent - again, his monumental ignorance is what's being held up to ridicule; I don't think for a moment that anyone would think he's being lauded.
It may have been the same interview and I was curious to see what his other output was...expecting him to be up there with comedy writing/producing greats like Marks and Gran, David Croft/Jeremy Lloyd (all people I used to worship in the 70s)....
...and then I saw that his next show was called 'Curry and Chips'.
I saw a clip of it.
Oh dear.
...and then I saw that his next show was called 'Curry and Chips'.
I saw a clip of it.
Oh dear.
Oh for those elysian days of the 50s, when you could say what you liked, there was no minority pressure groups forever trying to change our heritage, our country in fact our very way of life.
We could go to our cinemas / theatres, have a good laugh, a smoke, eat as much icecream as we pleased, without it causing undue suffering to our fellow man. No warnings on this and that, no calories or fats to bother about, no looking over one's shoulder before speaking your mind.
Believe me unless you were around at the time you don't know how lovely and carefree it was. Your one bin was emptied every week without one first sorting the rubbish, the Police and the Laws were there to protect the law-abiding citizen from the criminal, no cameras to record your movements and being able to safely stroll the fields and the streets no matter at what time of the day or night. No need for counseling or stress managerment in those days.
We could go to our cinemas / theatres, have a good laugh, a smoke, eat as much icecream as we pleased, without it causing undue suffering to our fellow man. No warnings on this and that, no calories or fats to bother about, no looking over one's shoulder before speaking your mind.
Believe me unless you were around at the time you don't know how lovely and carefree it was. Your one bin was emptied every week without one first sorting the rubbish, the Police and the Laws were there to protect the law-abiding citizen from the criminal, no cameras to record your movements and being able to safely stroll the fields and the streets no matter at what time of the day or night. No need for counseling or stress managerment in those days.
The only really good thing about 70s telly was the wrestling on ITV on Saturday afternoons.
Old grannies screaming muffled obscenities at Giant Haystacks (who mysteriously never seemed to win any fight against Big Daddy).
I still think though, that the television we have now absolutely trounces anything from the 70s.
There's simply no comparison.
Old grannies screaming muffled obscenities at Giant Haystacks (who mysteriously never seemed to win any fight against Big Daddy).
I still think though, that the television we have now absolutely trounces anything from the 70s.
There's simply no comparison.
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No, I wasn't there. However, I do have access to things called 'history books' and 'people' and 'documentary film' and other such resources, from which I am able to access things called 'facts' that show that just possibly life in 1950s Britain wasn't all quite as idylic as your memory seems to think it was.
I bet you can get access to some of these things too, if you really wanted.
I bet you can get access to some of these things too, if you really wanted.
I think perhaps a lot of people missed the point sp but I always remember those sitcoms for the fact that Alf was always them one to come off worse. Same with love thy neighbour. As mentioned earlier I think "Mind your language" was much worse because of the racial stereotypes they portrayed with effecitvely no redeeming features Thanks for you contributions everyone.
Waldo History books are usually written by people who were not there, and documentaries carefully edited, I agree the 50s were carefree days, children played outside, rationing ended, no supermarkets or mobile phones. Yes I lived in the 50s and have wonderful memories of that time.
I watched Till Death do us Part and certainly did not understand what is now said to be the racist comments. I just remember finding it very funny, and Alf saying a lot of things people did say in them days.
I watched Till Death do us Part and certainly did not understand what is now said to be the racist comments. I just remember finding it very funny, and Alf saying a lot of things people did say in them days.
I am sorry I missed this question when people were busy on it. This stands out for me because it appears to be a genuinely enquiring question, eliciting thoughts and opinions rather than a platform to air a belief that will provoke an argument.
I don't think the programmes in themselves iniated the change of understanding, but reflected the changing awareness in the white population about the injustices they were prepertrating and the black community the injustices that where being perpetrated. As a child I didn't pick up on the subleties so just found them unpleasant as the character Alf Garnett was to uncomfortably like one of my grandfathers (whom I disliked for a number of reasons). I have never watched them through adult eyes so do not know if I would understand them differently know.
I don't think the programmes in themselves iniated the change of understanding, but reflected the changing awareness in the white population about the injustices they were prepertrating and the black community the injustices that where being perpetrated. As a child I didn't pick up on the subleties so just found them unpleasant as the character Alf Garnett was to uncomfortably like one of my grandfathers (whom I disliked for a number of reasons). I have never watched them through adult eyes so do not know if I would understand them differently know.
I think sp1814 has hit the nail on the head. Although Alf Garnett was written as the intended target of the lampooning, alot of people didn't get that, and just saw a racist (if they objected to him) or a bit of a working class hero (if they held the same attitudes).
By the way, I would never put Rising Damp in the same category as the other programs mentioned. That was just funny. Finding anything offensive in that would be like finding 'The producers' offensive because it had nazis in, or finding David Brent offensive.
By the way, I would never put Rising Damp in the same category as the other programs mentioned. That was just funny. Finding anything offensive in that would be like finding 'The producers' offensive because it had nazis in, or finding David Brent offensive.
I loved The Office and Extras, but was criticized by my partner for double standard, because I always hated 'Til Death Us Do Part.
In The Office and Extras, I laugh at David Brents attitudes to the disabled and non-white co-workers, and was told that this is no different to the way Alf Garnett is portrayed.
However (and I had to think about this for a while), I reckon that the reason I always felt uncomfortable with Alf Garnett is that I remember the audience hooting with laughter when Alf Garnett said something about w*gs in the jungle and I suspected that they weren't actually laughing at him, but with him.
But then again, that just might've been my impression - I was very young at the time...
...which begs the question - why on earth was I allowed up to watch it in the first place???
In The Office and Extras, I laugh at David Brents attitudes to the disabled and non-white co-workers, and was told that this is no different to the way Alf Garnett is portrayed.
However (and I had to think about this for a while), I reckon that the reason I always felt uncomfortable with Alf Garnett is that I remember the audience hooting with laughter when Alf Garnett said something about w*gs in the jungle and I suspected that they weren't actually laughing at him, but with him.
But then again, that just might've been my impression - I was very young at the time...
...which begs the question - why on earth was I allowed up to watch it in the first place???
Can I please put up one timerous hand in defence of 'Mind your language' ? This was a programme which actually realised and promoted the fact that people with 'brown faces' were not actually one homogenous lump. I didn't understand the hostility between the Indian and the Pakistani characters until I made it my business to find out why.......Yes, there were the usual stereotypes but that also extended to the buttoned-up and rather ineffectual 'English' teacher, himself. He was as often a source of amusement to his pupils as they were to us.
This programme was very successful abroad including many places which could</> have taken offence at the stereotyping.
Admittedly, I think the 'european' stereotypes on offer were far less well developed and rather lazily sketched. Although, the reason that there are such things as easily recognisible stereotypes is because they DO exist. In the many years since the programme ended (and I'm probably refering to it series 1 and 2) I have met many of these characters. And YES they do think that we all wear bowler hats.........or that we're football hooligans and permanently drunk.
This programme was very successful abroad including many places which could</> have taken offence at the stereotyping.
Admittedly, I think the 'european' stereotypes on offer were far less well developed and rather lazily sketched. Although, the reason that there are such things as easily recognisible stereotypes is because they DO exist. In the many years since the programme ended (and I'm probably refering to it series 1 and 2) I have met many of these characters. And YES they do think that we all wear bowler hats.........or that we're football hooligans and permanently drunk.
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