Reasonable Use of Force

[flip_flop]

If Patrick Walsh has pushed the burglar from his window ledge, should he be punished, or has he used reasonable force?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml =/news/2007/08/10/nintruder110.xml

Personally, I feel that anybody entering a property without the owners permission with the intent to commit a crime, forfeits any rights they might otherwise have.

The burglar has died. Well boo hoo. Oh dear. Never mind.

[someonesgirl]

hahahah true....but i dont so its all good...

I once found myself alone in the house in the day time and someone broke in downstairs.....i was absolutely petrified.....unfortunately the only weapon i could find to defend myself was a maniquin childs arm (we had had a "zombie" themed party a few weeks earlier and someone left it behind covered in red paint as blood)

luckily the guy stole a wallet from downstairs, must have realised someone was in and ran off......but if he had come upstairs i would have seriously battered him for my own safety....or he would have taken one look at the fake arm and thought i was nuts and left voluntarily!!

[vehelpfulguy]

>Seriously, you'd rather kill a human than lose your DVD player and your jewellery? Is that what we've come to?

Most people are not bothered about the loss of a DVD player, or TV, or any other "luxury"

What they are bothered about is some drugged up piece of scum using a gun or knife on someone in the house.

If you wake in the middle of the night with one (or more) intruders in the house you have no way of knowing if they are armed or how desperate they are to harm you or your family.

The only defence you have is to scare them off, and if that means physical means then so be it.

Nobody asked them to come into your house and most people think you have the right to forceibly eject someone from your home.

If you cant feel safe in your home where can you feel safe ?

[BIG DAD]

NJOK, picture this, you are in you house and some scumbag breaks in and decides to help himself to your belongings you dont know if he is armed or wether he will turn violent but because of people like you who harp on about his human rights the most you can do is wait for him to attack you before you can protect yourself or call the police, the chances of the police coming straight away are minimal.
Your children are upstairs, you fell threatened and scared, it is insticnt to want to protect your family and belongings. Or would you just let him get on with it, i would shake Patrick Walsh's hand and buy him a pint if i ever met him.

[China Doll]

You don't know whether he is armed or whether he will turn violent....Your children are upstairs...

If you don't know if someone is going to turn violent or is armed and you have kids in the house do you really think that going at them is the best way to protect yourself and your family?

[flip_flop]

....as opposed to what China Doll: waiting for him to come to you and your family with a sharp shiny knife in his mitt?

[NJOK]

A few different arguments here, vehelpfulguy, including:

1) Is it reasonable to grievously harm someone to protect your property?

2) Is it reasonable to grievously harm someone to punish them for entering your house?

3) Is it reasonable to grievously harm someone to protect your own life?

What I'm challenging is the view that 'if you're in my house, you have given up any rights', including presumably the right not to be killed. Which is utterly neanderthal.

[NJOK]

Big Dad,

Talk me through this then. Some scummy ASBO teenager breaks into your house. Your kids are in bed so you go downstairs and confront him in the dark. You hit him. He goes down and you stamp on his head. He's still moving though. So you stamp on his head again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And then a few more times. Until his skull's open all over the kitchen floor.

But sod it. He was in your house. And you did have kids upstairs. So the fact you've killed a man is fine is it?

Just so I know where you're coming from, like.

Or am I being a soft liberal baby for even asking?

[China Doll]

Flip Flop Violence only ever leads to more violence and how do you know if you're going to come off the victor?

I'm not sure that running downstairs gung ho to an unknown threat is a great idea. Surely better to call the police and get to your kids room? The noise of you moving around may well be enough to get them out of your house anyway. (Or at least it was when this happened to me while I was babysitting several years ago).

If you wake up to someone standing over you then yes, of course you would use reasonable force but surely you wouldn't then expect not to be investigated for it?

[helpmetoo]

i am a placid guy,
if some to$$er busts in and violates my englishmans castle then yes they have CHOSEN to run the risk of unlimited force being used against them,
dont bust me and i wont rip off your head and pi$$ down your neck, its quite simple,
there is no lefty argument that could possibly defend the 'rights' of these people who are a total waste of space in society

[NJOK]

Incidentally, if someone broke into my house, they'd get a pasting. And I wouldn't feel bad about that in the slightest.

But if I gave them brain damage or killed them and I was arrested, I'd have it coming to me. Fair do's. I wouldn't then start crying and bleating about it not being fair or that the law's an ass or what about me or how this ******'s against decent people like me. Because I killed someone.

I'd be able to recognise that the punishment (death) is disproportionate to the crime (burglary).

[BIG DAD]

No NJOK, i hit him once so hard that he doesnt move again, and china, call the police, give me a break, they are only intrested in crimes with money involved, that is money to the police.

[NJOK]

The ******* means 'country'. I missed out the 'o'.

[NJOK]

"No NJOK, i hit him once so hard that he doesnt move again"

And if that kills him? You still expect society to be on your side?

[BIG DAD]

as opposed to a slap across the face so he can then pull out a knife and stab you. I dont think killing someone because they broke in your house is right, but i would do time before seeing my family in any danger. If that means ensuring he is stoped then that is what i will do.

[China Doll]

Big Dad - Our experiences of the police are obviously different. Whenever I have had need to call them they have come straight away. (And a couple of times without the noisy light on at my request).

I am not saying don't use reasonable force if you have to.
I'm just not advocating putting your own life in jeopardy either against an unknown threat if you can help it. To me that's sensible. You're able to offer your family a lot more protection if you still have a pulse.

I can also see that a system that did not investigate the circumstances of a death in your house because they are a criminal/burgler/wortheless piece of scum would be a flawed system that would be open to abuse.

It's not me sticking up for the criminals. It's just common sense.

(And I have to add that I really do find it quite interesting that no one here has thought that they might come off worse off. Do I lack the necessaries to know that I will definitely come out on top?! How protected are you, your family, your home and your possessions going to be if you are seriously hurt or killed by tackling a burglar? But that is an aside and not really part of Flip_Flop's original point).

[BIG DAD]

I can see your point, i guess we would all deal with it differently, who knows what is right. we wouldnt be having this conversation if there was a proper deterent from the law.

[joko]

i think most people who faced with a burglar sticking half way through your window, would push him back out again or pick something up to knock him out - what else? stand there and wait for him to get in then hit him?

thats assuming that this is what happened.

if this guy was already inside and this man forcibly threw him out a 3 storey window - that seems a bit oevr the top - but also understandable.

if the man was powerful enough to throw someone out of a window, then surely he is powerful enough to detain and call for help....?

its so hard to judge without all the facts and these are just one mans word.

in the heat of what would clearly be a terrifying moment, i would think it is very easy to over react - i mean you wouldn't have time to consider all eventualities would you?
You would totally be in fear for your life, because you are suddenly woken, in shock, terrified, probably in darkness and you have no idea of their intentions or whether they are armed - you can't be expected to perform a thorough assessment!!

i think it needs to stay a criminal offence though - but has to be regarded as mitigating circumstances - as allowing people to kill burglars opens up a whole new set of problems - people will undoubtedly take advantage, and may even create ' fake' burglaries, in order to legally murder their enemies
(i,e, kidnap someone they hate, break a window, then kill them and claim they were breaking in)

they'd become a daily occurrence in some places!

[Marvelman]

NJOK, i have never read so much tripe as your answers on this thread, compairing parking on double yellow lines to breaking into someones house and theatening them, then saying that if it happened to you they would get a good pasting, but if the scumbag hit his head and died you would gladly go to prison without question, i think you are slightly mad.

[Whickerman]

A burglar doesn't just steal your dvd player. as far as it goes, they steal your sense of safety, your comfort in your own home, your happiness.

Wait until it happens to you before you judge this man.

Personally, I think that anyone who forcefully enters your home should automatically legally forego their rights, and and subsequent actions are their own fault. I have no sympathy for scum who break into a home, and would be happy to vote for a homeowner's law. This has nothing to do with possessions - it's to do with your right to feel safe at home.

[ruby27]

Well aside from NJOK's last post about giving someone a good pasting if they broke into his? house, I agree with all that he has said.

Also China Doll's important point about how can people be sure that they can disarm the intruder unless using something like firearms. Certainly most women, elderly people and those with a disability are not going to be in a position to take on a young male who will be hyped up on adrenaline if nothing else.

Whickerman, I have been burgled on two occasions, both times I was in the house, all they stole was replaceable possessions - certainly not my sense of well being.

I don't think this story currently provides enough information to determine if excessive force was used or not. Certainly such a death needs investigating as otherwise as pointed out here, it would be a loophole for bumping of others.