Should Nazi Data from inhumane experiments be available?

[Shadow Man]

There has been a recent debate that is calling for Nazi data drawn from holocaust victims to be made public. Such data is argued to benefit modern science as the experiments are likely never to be repeated again. Many argue that data exists that would benefit modern science and the overall human condition.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/experim ents.html

This test here does take about ten minutes to complete. There is no registration just YES or NO to questions about Nazi data.

Some of the images can be distressing and show Jews in various levels of degrading experiments. Nothing that hasn't been seen on TV though.

An intersting debate methinks.

Intersting points made by Jewish doctors stressing it would be a closure to the ordeal for many living Jews and in way justify the horrific actions (sorry can not think of a better word than justify) but is equally argued that the data should be burnt forever.

[jedimistress]

Yes.

[MrBen5]

Hmmm, yes.
Any data which could help medical science should be used...

[jake-the-peg]

This is not an opinion poll it's a piece of propaganda.

It's not neutral but consists of a set of increasingly leading questions.

What is remarkable is that even when the final questions are tantamount to accusing you of being a moral accomplice for thinking that the data should be used, only 65% of people so far agree with the site

[dot.hawkes]

I don;t agree that experimenst and so called research should then be the subject of a poll or debate, the women who had their legs strapped together whilst in the last stage of labour did not sign a waiver did they? there should be no part of those experiments that should be used as a research source, i won't look at the link as I have enough horror etched on my brain as it is.

[China Doll]

Erm... I'm not able to get on that site at the moment.

Just wondered if you someone could give me a brief idea as to why you would want to use that data?

I never had the impression that the experiments done on the Jews were entirely useful as much as they were cruel and horrific.

Would there be a practical use for them?

[MrBen5]

Hmmm, you need to go on the site chinaDoll before posting an answer.
There are some nice questions in body and soul today :)

[China Doll]

I'd want to view the data if you ever got experimented on MrBen5 :0)

[jake-the-peg]

One of the uses I've heard is for survival times of people exposed to icy water.

I believe this data was used for quite a long time but has been superceded by more reliable data.

Put bluntly concentration camp victims do not live as long as modern sailors.

Obviously such data is limited in use and it's source must be born in mind but outlawing it's morality does not in itself comment on it's reliability.

Not using it where it might be useful but immoral is a bit like asking people to forget about how to make a nuclear weapon

[stewey]

This is merely an aside; it does not answer your question. I have to say that I take great umbrage when I hear or read people referring to these horrendous atrocities as crimes committed by the NAZIS: they were committed by the GERMANS!

[MrBen5]

I bet you would like to do the experimenting too ehh ChinaDoll? lol

[China Doll]

Only if it involved the cold water thing as mentioned by Jake Mr Ben5.

I see.

On dodgy ground a bit though isn't it. Even if the information is useful, as Dot points out, it's not like anyone gave their consent to be tested on.

[horsestache1]

Surely, any data would now be way out of date, Sterilization, IVF, Altitude, Freezing Water, to name but a few would be worthless experiments to review.

[MrBen5]

There is still an awful lot (even though it is isnt shown in the link) which may be of some use.
I know it was a terrible way of carrying out experiments, but you would be surprised by the actual info available which isnt released...

[B00]

Also, due to the often dreadful emaciation of the prisoners their tolerance to the freezing water for example would be less than say a healthy person?

And Stewey, they were German Nazis, many many Germans fought in the war, the vast majority being normal soldiers who did not take part in this horrific practice, in fact I'm willing to bet they were unaware?

[Neilzulu1]

Of course it should. Then we would have a new way to deal with nonces and rapists.

[Campfire]

I was disappointed with the results.

I'm a fan of being objective when it comes to moral issues. Emotions often lead us to decide something which is illogical but "feels" right. This is a human flaw, and one we should not always embrace. You can't really get a topic more emotionally charged than the holocaust - the word itself makes your heart flutter. Everyone feels very strongly about it and gets quite defensive whenever it's brought up.

So, when I went through all of those 14 arguments I discarded the emotionally charged arguments. I read them I might add, but I largely disagree they should contribute to the decision making thought process. Such arguments include the one about knowing how much pain was inflicted upon the victims, that some scientists think it would make us moral accomplices to use the data and that we should take into account the feelings of survivors.

The crux of the issue comes down to the fact that scientifically speaking the data is, well, crap. The experiments were performed on human beings that were malnourished and exhausted so therefore not comparable to an average human. The experiments cannot be repeated (in an ethical world), and as all scientific experiments should be subjected to that kind of scrutiny, these should be no exception. Also, the majority of the experiments provide us with nothing useful. It is quite right to consider data morally neutral - but that is irrelevant. This data should be discarded purely on the basis it is unscientific, not neutral, and cannot be repeated.

That's my opinion anyway :-)

[jake-the-peg]

A lot of Germans were the victims Stewey - they just happened to be Jewish!

[stewey]

Which just indicates that the Germans committed crimes against their own people as well as others.

[NJOK]

Horrific. Disturbing. Deeply wrong.

Not the experiments. The fact that people still use the word 'methinks'.

[Mr. Grieves]

An interesting point, and one which I agree campfire. I think some have missed the point here - the website focuses on ethics and ethical decision making. The arguments aren't meant to be "propaganda" nor are they meant to be incontrovertible - they are just positions that some people might take and arguments that they may use. The "arguments" are there to get you to think about ethical decision making, i.e. - what factors influence your ethical judgements.

So for example the argument - "any data that helps medical science is ok" could be followed by the question "ok, so can I do harmful experiment on prisoners now, so that medical science benefits?", if you think that is not ok, then your first premise suddenly is not a blanket statement, but has a proviso. Etc. It is about the structure and nature of argument and decision making. Personally I agree that scientific value is important, but also is the feelings of the survivors of the experiments. I work in a lab, and if a participant takes part in research but then does not want their data to be used in the analysis and publication of the data, as scientists we respect that and do not use their data.