Is our subjugation now complete?

[Loosehead]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/714165 1.stm
constitution by the back door eh? Even Brown is embarrassed to actually sign the final surrender. Have the public been duped from the start? Why do politicians of all colours want to emerse us in the corrupt superstate? Any suggestions for President? Are we beyond redemption from this tyranny?

[Gromit]

It is ironic that a process moved by Heath, Thatcher and Major is now so vehemently opposed by Tories.

I think it is part of the on-going process to integrate the EU which I am in favour of.

Mrs Thatcher passed the point of no return when she signed the Single European Act in 1986.

[jno]

I can't see that the treaty, constitution, whatever, takes us very much further. It does nudge us towards a European foreign policy. If this had been up and running five years ago, presumably we would have had to follow German and French wishes and stay out of Iraq. How awful a thought is that? The fact of the matter is that we have long tied ourselves to a different superstate, and much good it's done us.

[Loosehead]

This issue transcends party politics, what's the point in being in power when you are controlled by some foriegn unelected corrupt power. Yes i'm a Tory but never agreed with anything beyond the common market. I'd support anyone who'd get us out of the EU.

[jake-the-peg]

The EU has a real good habit of sticking up for it's citizens against big business interests.

Like taking on Microsoft for example.

Or taking on Bush over illegal steel embargos

Can you see any UK government doing something like that? Ever?

The world is changing and it's going to be a case of "get big or get lost".

Yes there are things that need to be changed but every time someone tries and we have a treaty - the press tries to whip everybody up into a mindless patriotic frenzy.

Good to see Brown's had the courage to just ignore them all - I suppose he's back to Stalin now is he?

[Whickerman]

Because we have a written constitution, and one we vehemently uphold, we in Ireland will be given a referendum on this treaty.

Just thought I'd add that, and ask why you won't have? Do you elect politicians to serve you or rule you?

[Loosehead]

doesn't matter what you have now whickerman, it'll be overridden by the EU anyway. If there's any good to come from the EU then it will make petty land disputes irelevant.

[New Judge]

Yes it will, loosehead. The idea is that ultimately Europe (and probably part of Asia) becomes a single conglomerate mess. Everybody knows what eventually happens to empires which are formed by amalgamating constituent parts which have no common culture, interest, language or sovereignty. They eventually and inevitably break up �sometimes violently.

The people of the UK (and indeed the rest of Europe, though I don�t care much for them) are deluding themselves if they believe that such a diverse amalgamation as the EU can survive. The more diverse an entity is forced together, the greater are the powers needed to hold it together. Those in the UK who think it does not matter that we be subjugated in this way are doing themselves and, more importantly, their children and grandchildren the gravest of disservices for which they will never be forgiven.

[Loosehead]

spot on judge, even though the arrangement is peaceful, some group or other will at some point get an upper had and start to impose their will on the rest, one thing leads to another and you have civil war. Where as I share the romanticists belief that we could all cooperate and live in peace, the reality though is that human nature dictates that there will always be some group or other trying to get a better deal for their "people" hence agreavement spreads. The EU will eventually collapse, it's just a matter of time.

[kwicky]

I agree with Jake on this one. With 20% of new immigrants and countless Muslims opposing our foreign policies by aligning to the USA we are destroying ourselves within. A new foreign policy allied with the EU is our only hope!