Are you enjoying your endless self-indulgence?

[Gromit]

The Bishop of Rochester, the Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, a man who knows how to grab the headlines, claimed the "social and sexual" revolution of the 1960s has led to a steep decline in the influence of Christianity over society which church leaders have failed to resist.

He said that in its place, Britain had become gripped by the doctrine of "endless self-indulgence" which had led to the destruction of family life, rising levels of drug abuse and drunkenness and mindless violence on the streets.

He was obviously having a bad day and making excuses for the Christian church's failure to communicate with modern people, but is he right in asserting that this is why radical Islam is on the up?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2042169 /Bishop-Michael-Nazir-Ali-Radical-Islam-is-fil ling-void-left-by-collapse-of-Christianity-in- UK.html

[andy-hughes]

The rise of radical Islam is not directly a result of the 'moral vacum' created by the decline in Christianity - it is that level of arrogance about his faith that alienates the very people to whom the bishop should be reaching out.

The modern church is the same as the ancient church - isolated, elitist, superior, pompous, holier-than-thou (literally!) snobbish, deeply out of touch, and profoundly convinced of its own wonderfulness, such that it doesn't feel the need to actually proactively build its belief system, but feels it should simply allow its all-round wonderfulness to seep into the collective conciousness by osmosis, and then it bleats and moans when this fails to occur.

Radical Islam is the same as radical Christianity - a minority of insecure arrogant idiots who believe they are right, and the world is wrong.

The rise of Islam is simply a law of averages - if you build your faith into the fabric of your family life - as Islam does - then you will always have far more followers. This proportionately means ytou will have a greater percentage of fanatics - which although a small minority, are seized on by the right wing fear factory that is the western media, and made to be far more frightening and widespread that they really are.

The Bishop would do well the get his vicars out into schools and colleges and preaching the practical and positive aspects of his faith, instead of shouting down from his ivory tower about how we are all doomed, and it is nothing at all to do with him - he is a good guy, it's the rest of us who are going to hell in a hand cart.

The Christian church gets the followers it deserves - or as is apparent - not.

[jake-the-peg]

Right - so lets take a more God fearing age like the Victorian era.

Lawless streets, street prostitutes, drunkeness, opium dens

What's his excuse for that then?

You couldn't possibly have morality without religion could you that's why athiests like Bertam Russell were such hell raisers!

What an ar$e!

[keyplus90]

I think he is just accepting the truth. Present Christianity has failed to answer people's questions as there are flaws in its teachings. People are not sure which God to believe in, which bible to trust and which church to go in. In the end they decided to stay away from it all together. Islam on the other hand gives practical answers to the questions. There is difference of opinions in Islamic scholars as well. But in most of the cases you do not need their opinion as Quran is only one, no versions and no difference all over the world. So difference between scholars is not more than a fraction and is due to personal views. Basic teachings of Islam are and have been same and the most practical over centuries. And that is the reason not only common people are reverting to Islam but a good number of the leaders of other religions as well. People who were once preaching Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, Christianity and so on are not only Muslims now but also are preaching the teachings of Islam. I would not be surprised if Michael Nazir Ali would follow the same path sooner or later. After all if we take Michael out then he already has a lovely Muslim name. Nazir Ali

[Gromit]

keyplus90

Michael Nazir Ali was born and brought up in Pakistan where he was persecuted and eventually left in fear of his life. That's not really a good advert for Islam and a good reason why your hope that he will convert is unlikely to happen.

Is the sectarian killings between Sunnis and Shia Moslims is just a difference of opinion is it? You may not like the Christians being in Iraq, but the truth is that an Iraqi is more likely to be killed by another moslim that by a Christian.

And from where I am reading, you are just as deluded and blinkered as Mr Nazir-Ali.

[keyplus90]

I would not blame you for thinking like that. Michael Nazir Ali left Pakistan and I am from Pakistan as well. I have more Christian friends there because I was educated in a church school. I know many Muslims here let alone Christians who cooked stories to claim asylum. I am not saying there are no incidents like that�s, but these can happen any where. You have to judge them by the scale.

Sunnis and Shia- I think the killing between these sects is a fraction of killing between different Christian beliefs. Did you ever realize that why in Iraq it increased since American and allied forces invaded it. Same stories increased in India few centuries ago when Britain invaded India. People know the phenomenon as Divide and rule. Even then in the history of Shia Sunni dispute no sectarian leaders ever have publicly encouraged it. Majority of people do not even consider it anything to do with Islam itself. Even in Pakistan Shia and Sunnis have been living together since centuries. As far as their belief is concerned they all agree on fundamental teachings of Islam and there is no difference. It is nothing like Roman Catholics and protestants.

[Gromit]

Sunnis and Shias were killing each for many years.

The Khomeini v Sadam fixture saw more than a million Moslims kill each other. Not that the Americans were not involved in this senseless killing of Muslim by Muslim, but ultimately, it was two Islamic states, and two different versions of Islam (and two stupid mens egos) that resulted in such carnage.

Christians sects have killed each other in vast numbers, but you are asserting Islam is different. It isn't.

Michael Nazir Ali did not follow the normal immigration route into Britain. His life was in danger, and the Arch Bishop of Canterbury brought him to England to remove him and his family from danger. He did not cook a story.

[keyplus90]

At least you are admitting who was behind the war between Iran & Iraq. That only happened because Khomieni declared his revolution as Islamic Revolution and West had always acquired and later eliminated people like Saddam, Zia ul Haq and many in the past and are still buying people like Mahmud Abbas, Perveiz Musharaf and so on. And unfortunately leaders in the Muslim countries are unwilling to give-up their own luxuries and lavish habits and that is the reason they are afraid of real Islam themselves. Because in real Islamic world they would not be treated as Kings and have no advantages. So they do not want to believe in that and want to dig their head in the sand. And that is giving birth to people like Osama Bin Laden.

Michael Nazir Ali's story about settling here is same as anyone else's only difference is Archbishop of Canterbury and others have to tell their stories to home office. He still has dual nationality and does visit Pakistan. I know so many people here who declared themselves Christians and ahmedis only because that gave them easy asylum. And most of them are here for financial reasons.

[jake-the-peg]

The other thing I don't quite get is how a sexual revolution leads to the death of family life to drug taking and violence.

I know an awful lot of people from broken families but there aren't many drug addicts and violent nutters in the list.

And he was once tipped as arch bishop of Caterbury!

This is why we need to kick bishops out of the house of Lords

[ruby27]

"who blames the loss of "faith and piety among women" for the steep decline in Christian worship".

Bloody typical, blame the women. That sentiment in itself is almost enough for me to join up and become a radicalised terriorist.

"respect, tolerance and good behaviour" are "hardly adequate for the task before us". So he is advocating, intolerance, lack of respect.................... And this from someon who claims to have some right to provide moral guidance!

[Gromit]

Christianity reached its peak in the UK in the 19th century when the majority of attendees were the illiterate poor. When people were able to read for themselves and not have the Bible foisted on them, they began to think for themselves and christianity began to lose its appeal.

Islam is a religion on the ascendancy, but if you look where,
Pakistan (50% illiterate)
Bangladesh (57 illiterate)
Afghanistan (72% illiterate)
Yemen (50% illiterate)

Will Islam have the same appeal when these people learn to read and think for themselves?

http://www.photius.com/rankings/population/lit eracy_total_2008_0.html

[keyplus90]

Gromit � As you said Islam is in ascendancy in these countries. And I would say that literacy is ascending as well. If you look at the history of these countries you mentioned their literacy rate has increased in last few decades. So your equation is proving wrong straight away.

[Gromit]

There are a lot more ways of diseminating religious material today. Printing is a lot cheaper than it has ever been, the Internet is virtually free and DVDs are cheap to make. In short, technology is helping to spread Islamic ideas. However, when people become more educated and begin to question what they are told, then a slowdown is Muslim adherents will probaby occur.
the literacy figures above are rather flattering. The rate for women, who will do most of the looking after of children, is usually half that of the men, and therefore way below the average figures I gave above.

[jno]

the Iran-Iraq war wasn't just about sectarianism (or egos); much of it was about regional influence: who was to be the local superpower. It was more or less a draw; but since then, thanks to US intervention, the Iranians have raced ahead. I'm not sure this was Washington's intention, but there you are. Likewise the Spanish armada was partly, but not wholly, a clash between Catholic and Protestant.

[jno]

oh, and self-indulgence, no, not enjoying it; I think I may be doing it wrong.