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''shock tactic''
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so home secretary jacqui smith is to launch a ''shock'' tactic and get the authoroties to take thugs who carry knives to hospitals and show them the effects that a knife inflicts on a victim,is this the best they can do to tackle the problem?...its laughable....does she think that these thugs will even bother to turn up?..a zero tolerance approach is needed....or else we will see more news of people being stabbed to death in the uk...and i mean the carrying of a knife in a public place is a mandatory 5 year jail sentence...end of story....
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And I go back to my original - do you actually know these kids, or are you just buying into the media hype?
No, they don't care if they are being anti-social - because they haven't seen the implications of their actions.
Its a bit like going from driving a car on a computer game and then driving for real. You have a different attitude to your surroundings - and this is one of the reasons that there are so many problems with young drivers.
The more you say "kids don't care", the more kids won't care.
No, they don't care if they are being anti-social - because they haven't seen the implications of their actions.
Its a bit like going from driving a car on a computer game and then driving for real. You have a different attitude to your surroundings - and this is one of the reasons that there are so many problems with young drivers.
The more you say "kids don't care", the more kids won't care.
Vic, get real. They don't care - and they do see the results of their violence. They see they're victims lying on the floor in pools of blood. Do you honestly think they don't realise what they've done? Or do you think they're completely stupid? Media hype? How many have died over this weekend? In London alone, four in the past few days. Young lives snuffed out - kids killing kids. However much you don't want it to be so, it is so, and we have to face reality.
Sorry, I don't remember you asking that question at all. The answer is quite a bit.
Accusing me of wishing to write an entire generation off is not fair, it's unreasonable, and it smacks of grasping at straws to maintain your argument. It's not the entire generation who are creating the problems. I love kids, and I truly wish this wasn't happening, but it is, and sticking our heads in the sand and excusing anti-social behaviour - and even murder - isn't going to help anyone, least of all the kid who carries the knife - or the kid who dies as a result of it.
Incidentally, Jacqui Smith has done a u-turn, so now even this dozy government realises what a crass and unworkable idea this was.
Accusing me of wishing to write an entire generation off is not fair, it's unreasonable, and it smacks of grasping at straws to maintain your argument. It's not the entire generation who are creating the problems. I love kids, and I truly wish this wasn't happening, but it is, and sticking our heads in the sand and excusing anti-social behaviour - and even murder - isn't going to help anyone, least of all the kid who carries the knife - or the kid who dies as a result of it.
Incidentally, Jacqui Smith has done a u-turn, so now even this dozy government realises what a crass and unworkable idea this was.
Vic, get real. They don't care - and they do see the results of their violence.
You don't see this as generalisation?
Incidentally, Jacqui Smith has done a u-turn, so now even this dozy government realises what a crass and unworkable idea this was.
Jacqui Smith has not done a U turn: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7507073 .stm
You don't see this as generalisation?
Incidentally, Jacqui Smith has done a u-turn, so now even this dozy government realises what a crass and unworkable idea this was.
Jacqui Smith has not done a U turn: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7507073 .stm
This comes from an interview with Sky News.
In an interview with Sky's Adam Boulton on Sunday Live, Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said youngsters caught with knives would be forced to confront the possible consequences by bringing them face-to-face with blade victims in hospitals.
But now, the Home Office said they would instead only be expected to meet doctors to be educated about the injuries caused by knives.
"One of those proposals is that people caught carrying knives should be taken to see people in hospital who have been stabbed, or to meet the families of victims, is that correct?" Adam asked.
"It is," replied Ms Smith.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Gove rnment-U-Turn-On-Knife-Crime-Policy-No-Hospita l-Visits-To-Stab-Victims/Article/2008072150331 06?f=rss
Can't say clearer than that!! No, of course she hasn't done a u-turn. Honest as the day is long!
I said in my last post that it's not an entire generation who are creating the problems, and I'm sure you read that and understood it, but clearly you prefer not to acknowledge it.
In an interview with Sky's Adam Boulton on Sunday Live, Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said youngsters caught with knives would be forced to confront the possible consequences by bringing them face-to-face with blade victims in hospitals.
But now, the Home Office said they would instead only be expected to meet doctors to be educated about the injuries caused by knives.
"One of those proposals is that people caught carrying knives should be taken to see people in hospital who have been stabbed, or to meet the families of victims, is that correct?" Adam asked.
"It is," replied Ms Smith.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Gove rnment-U-Turn-On-Knife-Crime-Policy-No-Hospita l-Visits-To-Stab-Victims/Article/2008072150331 06?f=rss
Can't say clearer than that!! No, of course she hasn't done a u-turn. Honest as the day is long!
I said in my last post that it's not an entire generation who are creating the problems, and I'm sure you read that and understood it, but clearly you prefer not to acknowledge it.
You may be right (I can't access the videos from this computer).
Its a shame - a good idea that is again burned into the ground by a right wing press.
Bit like David Cameron's 'hug a hoodie'
decent ideas that may work, but because it is not deemed popular, it is written off.
Still, lets just lock em all up. Apparently we have already established that they know what they are doing and deserve it.
Its a shame - a good idea that is again burned into the ground by a right wing press.
Bit like David Cameron's 'hug a hoodie'
decent ideas that may work, but because it is not deemed popular, it is written off.
Still, lets just lock em all up. Apparently we have already established that they know what they are doing and deserve it.
Vic, let me ask you a question. If you were lying in hospital with serious stab wounds, would you want your attacker to come gawping at you so that he could see the damage he'd done? I'm know I wouldn't - and I know my family wouldn't want him there either - but then who ever considers the victims or their families? They're the last on the list. This was a poorly thought-out plan, there's no doubt about that, and if it was burned to the ground by the right wing press, then good for them. At least it seems someone has a bit of common sense.
If we continue to take your softly softly approach, and leave these thugs roaming in society to do as they like, I trust you'll be happy to accept your share of the blame every time another kid is murdered?
If we continue to take your softly softly approach, and leave these thugs roaming in society to do as they like, I trust you'll be happy to accept your share of the blame every time another kid is murdered?
jacqui smith needs to get real, on her new shock tactics and stop wasting one hundred million on this stupid idea in trying to sort this knife crime out.
The only way you can deal with these idiots is to get really tuff spend them millions on a army run brad camp get caught with a knife and your in there for 2 years.Then these army run camps have every power to deal with you and disapline you and each time you play up your sentence is increasd by a week.
And make them cook and clean for them selfs etc
and do what one state does in america prison when u are in there make them wear pink clothes.
And if they commit a murder start to hang them and this will send signals out to the rest of them to hang.
oh dear i forgot jacqui smith has her hands tied by the human right if the truth is known thats why they cant do much about it
The only way you can deal with these idiots is to get really tuff spend them millions on a army run brad camp get caught with a knife and your in there for 2 years.Then these army run camps have every power to deal with you and disapline you and each time you play up your sentence is increasd by a week.
And make them cook and clean for them selfs etc
and do what one state does in america prison when u are in there make them wear pink clothes.
And if they commit a murder start to hang them and this will send signals out to the rest of them to hang.
oh dear i forgot jacqui smith has her hands tied by the human right if the truth is known thats why they cant do much about it
My attacker - no, probably not (but then I am a big girl's blouse).
Other kids who may think carrying a knife 'cool' - yes, probably.
some people are happy to try and do things which may help others. Examples include Leah Bett's parents (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848638.s tm) - do you think her parent's enjoyed seeing this?
In my mind, if I stopped 1 kid from carrying a knife, then I would be happy.
I believe that Jacqui Smith was not talking about the youths visiting their victims, but other victims.
Other kids who may think carrying a knife 'cool' - yes, probably.
some people are happy to try and do things which may help others. Examples include Leah Bett's parents (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848638.s tm) - do you think her parent's enjoyed seeing this?
In my mind, if I stopped 1 kid from carrying a knife, then I would be happy.
I believe that Jacqui Smith was not talking about the youths visiting their victims, but other victims.
Vic, Sorry, I forgot this bit. I couldn�t open your link, but I know what it shows. No, I don't think Leah Betts' parents enjoyed seeing it - and, as a parent, I think it was very brave of them to allow it to be shown. They're living every day of their lives with the very real results of drugs - their daughter is dead - and I would make an educated guess that, given the choice, they wouldn't choose the soft option for the pushers. Their purpose in allowing it to be shown was solely to warn other potential young victims that this is what can happen. It was not to re-educate or appeal to the, probably non-existent, better nature of the pushers.
Vic, if you were in hospital with stab wounds, I doubt you'd want ANY knife carrying yob coming to gawp at you - as I said, I believe I probably would (and I think I know me better than you) - but let's not hope that happens and I have to make a choice.
Why do you think thugs will be left roaming the street?
This isn't a case of:
Oh, you've murdered someone, well don't worry, we'll caution you and you have to visit a hospital.
What I would have envisaged this to be used for is kids who don't understand why carrying a knife in self defence is a bad thing.
Not all people who carry knives are bad people - some of them are simply scared of walking by themselves in case they get 'jumped'.
We have had countless posters on here telling all and sundry that if anyone broke into their home, they would pretty much kill the intruder.
How would you feel if the people you hung around with were all mugged by gangs? Would you do anything you could to defend yourself?
(And without trying to sound sexist, this may be more of a male thing - in terms that women do not often go out in groups and attack other women - and of course the majority of knife attacks are done and carried out on males).
Yes, that's true. You do know yourself better than I know you. Nevertheless, as so often happens, people think differently when an imagined scenario becomes a reality.
Why do I think thugs will be left roaming the streets? I've got no option. They ARE left roaming the streets. It's a fact.
This from the Telegraph, July 2008 - At present, one in five people found guilty of a knife offence are let off with a caution.
The Spectator, May 2008 - In 2006, only nine of the 6,314 people convicted of carrying a knife were handed down a maximum sentence.
London Evening Standard, July 2008 - Jack Straw has admitted that new rules allowing knife offenders to be let off with a fine will come into force next month, despite promises of tougher action.
Not all people who carry knives are bad people - some of them are simply scared of walking by themselves in case they get 'jumped'. Probably true - but don't you ever wonder how those who don't carry knives manage?
continued....
Why do I think thugs will be left roaming the streets? I've got no option. They ARE left roaming the streets. It's a fact.
This from the Telegraph, July 2008 - At present, one in five people found guilty of a knife offence are let off with a caution.
The Spectator, May 2008 - In 2006, only nine of the 6,314 people convicted of carrying a knife were handed down a maximum sentence.
London Evening Standard, July 2008 - Jack Straw has admitted that new rules allowing knife offenders to be let off with a fine will come into force next month, despite promises of tougher action.
Not all people who carry knives are bad people - some of them are simply scared of walking by themselves in case they get 'jumped'. Probably true - but don't you ever wonder how those who don't carry knives manage?
continued....
Continued
We have had countless posters on here telling all and sundry that if anyone broke into their home, they would pretty much kill the intruder. That's a nonsensical analogy. Those who would 'pretty much kill an intruder' have a reason for feeling that way. Their homes have been violated, and often wrecked, and their hard-earned possessions have been stolen. What reason does a kid have for stabbing another kid? Because he looked at him the wrong way?
How would you feel if the people you hung around with were all mugged by gangs? Would you do anything you could to defend yourself? The simple answer to that is I wouldn't hang around with them. How is it that the majority of kids manage to avoid keeping such company? It's not compulsory, you know.
And you've STILL avoided answering my question. When more kids are injured or murdered, will you, with your soft approach and excuses, be happy to accept your share of the blame?
We have had countless posters on here telling all and sundry that if anyone broke into their home, they would pretty much kill the intruder. That's a nonsensical analogy. Those who would 'pretty much kill an intruder' have a reason for feeling that way. Their homes have been violated, and often wrecked, and their hard-earned possessions have been stolen. What reason does a kid have for stabbing another kid? Because he looked at him the wrong way?
How would you feel if the people you hung around with were all mugged by gangs? Would you do anything you could to defend yourself? The simple answer to that is I wouldn't hang around with them. How is it that the majority of kids manage to avoid keeping such company? It's not compulsory, you know.
And you've STILL avoided answering my question. When more kids are injured or murdered, will you, with your soft approach and excuses, be happy to accept your share of the blame?
And you've STILL avoided answering my question. When more kids are injured or murdered, will you, with your soft approach and excuses, be happy to accept your share of the blame?
This is a nonsensical question - you start of with the premise of 'when'. You are stating that this won't work and you cannot possibly know that.
This from the Telegraph, July 2008 - At present, one in five people found guilty of a knife offence are let off with a caution. - so 80% are presumably charged. Do you know why they were cautioned? Presumably because the police think that is the best course of action in that case. Interesting that although you have no knowledge of these cases, you appear to think you know better than the police.
The Spectator, May 2008 - In 2006, only nine of the 6,314 people convicted of carrying a knife were handed down a maximum sentence. - this is fairly normal - the maximum sentence for robbery is life imprisonment. The maximum for burglary is 14 years. Drug dealers convicted of supplying a class A drug can be sentenced to life in prison, but out of 35,855 people convicted of the offence between 2000 and 2004, only two were handed life terms.
Maximums are exactly that - the maximum, not the average, not the minimum nut the maximum - and reserved for the most heinous examples.
cont
This is a nonsensical question - you start of with the premise of 'when'. You are stating that this won't work and you cannot possibly know that.
This from the Telegraph, July 2008 - At present, one in five people found guilty of a knife offence are let off with a caution. - so 80% are presumably charged. Do you know why they were cautioned? Presumably because the police think that is the best course of action in that case. Interesting that although you have no knowledge of these cases, you appear to think you know better than the police.
The Spectator, May 2008 - In 2006, only nine of the 6,314 people convicted of carrying a knife were handed down a maximum sentence. - this is fairly normal - the maximum sentence for robbery is life imprisonment. The maximum for burglary is 14 years. Drug dealers convicted of supplying a class A drug can be sentenced to life in prison, but out of 35,855 people convicted of the offence between 2000 and 2004, only two were handed life terms.
Maximums are exactly that - the maximum, not the average, not the minimum nut the maximum - and reserved for the most heinous examples.
cont
cont]
What reason does a kid have for stabbing another kid? Because he looked at him the wrong way? - no, because he was scared for his own life.
How would you feel if the people you hung around with were all mugged by gangs? Would you do anything you could to defend yourself? The simple answer to that is I wouldn't hang around with them. How is it that the majority of kids manage to avoid keeping such company? It's not compulsory, you know.
And what happens when you life is made a living hell by the others in the area?
Try living in a council estate for a month and then you may understand why these youths turn to gangs.
I am not saying (and never have said) that this knives are not a problem that need to be dealt with.
I am simply saying that with some of these youths, they are a victim of circumstances, and helping them can be better that just writing them off.
I do agree that some are beyond help and we need to come down hard on them.
I see a difference between the two - it appears that you don't.
What reason does a kid have for stabbing another kid? Because he looked at him the wrong way? - no, because he was scared for his own life.
How would you feel if the people you hung around with were all mugged by gangs? Would you do anything you could to defend yourself? The simple answer to that is I wouldn't hang around with them. How is it that the majority of kids manage to avoid keeping such company? It's not compulsory, you know.
And what happens when you life is made a living hell by the others in the area?
Try living in a council estate for a month and then you may understand why these youths turn to gangs.
I am not saying (and never have said) that this knives are not a problem that need to be dealt with.
I am simply saying that with some of these youths, they are a victim of circumstances, and helping them can be better that just writing them off.
I do agree that some are beyond help and we need to come down hard on them.
I see a difference between the two - it appears that you don't.
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