political freedoms?

[el duerino]

a friend of my dads, a police officer, has been informed he is not allowed to joint or be associated with the British National party. In my opinion this is an infringement of his civil rights - the BNP is a legitimate political party at this point in time. What next? so many slippery sloped to go down from here. Not that he or I etc would consider joining, its the principle. opinions?

[BenDToy]

I read somewhere recently that another profession (could have been teachers) are being told the same. As el duerion, I would not want to join, but I defend anyone's right to do so. Another example of BB where people are being persecuted for what they think and not for what they do. (For BB read Blair's Britain - he really is the worst PM we have ever ever had. If only we had a credible opposition!)

[Oneeyedvic]

All very true. Police officers are not allowed to join a political party - but noone stops them joining the conservatives/lib dem/labour/ green etc. They would probably also draw the line at joining the legalise cannabis party. I don't think this is an infringement of his civil rights - surely it is also his civil right to have freedom of speech - does this mean he should be able to shout at street corners "I hate black people". hmmmm...i think not Civil rights are not always as they seem. That siad, I do however agree that the BNP is a political organisation though and I do think that he should be able to join if he so wishes - so long as he keeps it in his own personal time and can remain impartial in his work. - same goes for teachers and any other profession.

[el duerino]

well no shouting that would be an incitement to racial hatred or wotever it is. however the bNP does have policies which are not racist. personally I think it is an abhorrent road to go down. Soon it will be companies stating political preferences.

[FannyBrice]

I'd be interested to know whether police officers are allowed to join the Anti Nazi League also, or is that okay in Blair's Britain, as it is a more politically correct org? I know that the BNP attracts troublemakers, but so does the ANL. It is a slippery slope...

[Oneeyedvic]

Already there...around 18 months ago someone went to court as they were sacked because they smoked and the boss particularly wanted a non smoker. Not sure if he lied, but got sacked and the decision was upheld at tribunal. Also not sure that jus stating a fact / preference can be classed as incitement. saying " I think we should go and hit...." etc is but surely a statement can't be.

[Oneeyedvic]

This is the story I was referring to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1657624.stm I am sure this decision was upheld

[jimmer]

hummmmmm. But the BNP are racist or are you going to give me an argument which says they arn't. I once met a local government official, part of his job description required him to be apolitical this means he could not have a declared interest in any party. it is up to him what he thinks or says in private but to do his job he needs to be impartial. Should we also allow police officers to be members of other politcal parties, say, Sinn Fein. The truth is that where people occupy a position of authority they hve a responsibility to that office and membership of certain political organisations would conflict directly with their ability to carry out their duties and maintain public confidence. If the BNP get voted in they can make the police force as overtly racist as they want and we can look forward to the new gestapo. Until that day then any police officer has the freedom to leave the force and join any neo-fascist, racist bullyboy group they see fit. as long as they uphold the law.

[Alej]

I agree, people of authority have responsibility within the community ie. policemen. Obviously if they joined the party it shows how deeply they feel for the party principles and they would act in their work out what the party wanted. I find it hard to believe a BNP policeman wouldnt discriminate against immigrants! Also would you like a BNP member teaching your children? Teachers have a lot of influence. Of course you can argue they would think like this regardless of being a member of the party, however in my opinion being a member they would think themselves more obliged to spread the racist, ignorant views of the party. Civil rights must be breeched in some cases for the greater good.

[Oneeyedvic]

What would happen if they were members of the BNP 5 years ago but no longer a member. Would they be allowed to teach then? What about 15 years ago? what about 5 months ago? IS there a difference? Also don't forget Enoch Powell and his views - being part of the conservative party does not make youa racist though does it?

[jimmer]

no oneeyedvic being a racist makes one a racist and i'm sure there are racists in all political parties. From what i can tell from their site the BNP are Nationalists who believe in involuntary repatriation of everyone but born and bread anglo-saxons. It takes a cursory glance of their literature to pick up their opinion that "whites" get a raw deal in the UK because of "non-whites" ( in "" there terms not mine). they also offer some great articles, where one can learn about islam: "Despite the distorted claims of the BBC, no BNP spokesman has ever said that mass rape is THE means by which Islam is spread. Far more common is the the use of the sword or its modern equivalent, the AK47." (note THE in capitals. ). Do you want policemen who buy into that ideology?

[Oneeyedvic]

I am sure that there are policeman who do beleive it already. But I do see we have a choice - we can act like a democracy and let people have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and the chance to make their own minds up, or we can become a dictatorship and this is the view rational people should hold and thats it. Yes, some policeman are racist. FACT. whether they elect to join a POLITICAL party or not is up to them. Does that mean that if a policeman is ever caught speeding they cannot do their job because they break the rules...course not. Enoch Powell less than 50 years ago beleived in repatriation of immigrants. Now the leader of his party is an immigrant. As I have said previously, I really don't believe that ALL policemen are racist or will buy into the mentioned theory. If a minority do then so what. By banning them, all you are doing is encouraging the BNP and giving them extra headlines. I have said before, I am of Asian origin, I have been stopped on various occasions by the police (but never arrested) and I still believe they have the right to join the BNP if they so wish.

[ludwig]

Everyone person has the right to join the BNP - there's no question about that. However, not everyone has the right to be employed by the Police. Among those people who don't have the right to be employed by the police are .. members of the BNP and that's fine by me.

[jimmer]

Democracy and freedom of speech are not the same thing. Under democracy each person living in a comunity has the right of respect and social equality and in the case of the Uk has an elected representative in parliament. Freedom of speech means you are free to say what you want. The Uk does not have completly free speach anyhow. There are laws governing what we say to each other to protect our rights under the principles of democracy above.I am not saying the BNPP should be banned or gagged but there are some jobs in the UK which require candidates to uphold certain principles. If i am a communist i cannot join the secret service; if i'm a member of the ALF i probably couldn't get a job at Huntington life sciences. If i was a member of the BNP or for that matter an anarchist i shouldn't be able to join the police force. The stated objective of the organisation are opposed to the remit of the Job. jim

[el duerino]

Some interesting views here. Im not sure everyone will be so happy when their political freedoms are infringed upon. Its not the fact that its the BNP - I believe that the majority of their views are as wack as any other normal person. However what if the next time you go for a job, you are told that certain political ideologies are not permitted in the office. What if an entrepreneur will not employ people of leftist persuasion as he does not believe their socialism is compatible with a capitalist work ethic. not the strongest point ever but you see where im coming from. I do not believe political persuasion should be a factor in obtaining or carrying out employment.

[Oneeyedvic]

Are people really naive enough to think that all policemen "uphold the principles" of democracy. Do we think that all policemen never break the law. I'm fairly certain than 99% of policemen break the law at some stage of their career (speeding being the most obvious). Does that mean they are unfit for the job? If people can't have certain views but still carry out a job then there really is no hope. If a teacher is a Christian should she be employed at all - the majority of people in this country have no faith. Or if you believe this country is Christian, does that mean that a Muslim should not be employed as a policeman as he sees things differently? Slippery slope..... each to their own so long as it is legal and does not impinge on their professional judgement.

[Alej]

I believe that with this example you are missing the point. The BNP is a racist party that causes damage and divide within comunities so you cannot compare it so directly with other parties or faiths. Police are in a position of power and of course this is abused at some time or another, possibly by their bias. It is not a matter of their political alignment i.e. a capitalist not wanting a socialist(if a socialist was so enough to be evidently so he wouldnt work for a capitalist). It is the point that if he is a member of the BNP he is racist. And wheather he is or isnt anyway is not the point, the fact that he has power and officially supports a racist party is unacceptable. As for an infringement of civil rights - the BNP belives there should be no civil rights for immigrants so if they were in power they would be a lot worse than simply banning their entry into the forces.

[jimmer]

1. if a policeman breaks the law then he will be punished by the law and through an internal diciplinary procedure. Of course he should uphold the principles of democracy 2. We live in a secular society. A teacher in a state school can hold whatever religious beliefs. However, if it was a teacher in a muslim school teaching say, "religious studies" i expect they would have to follow islam. Ditto for a pastor in a roman catholic school, only they would have to be roman catholic obviously. 3. "If people can't have certain views but still carry out a job then there really is no hope". If the views that person holds are expressed and those views hamper or prevent that person from doing the job properly then i would think it was obvious that they are not capable of doing the job in hand. i could go on forever giving you examples of people who are excluded from jobs because of their expressed and verifiable beliefs. Do you think it is unfair/anti-democratic for the police service to ask that the people who are responsible for policing the streets , keeping citizens safe and arresting and interrogating suspects do not belong to an organisation who activly believes that a percentage of this population are responsible for "the state britain is in" and should be sent back from whence they came? i dont.

[Drewhound]

Well said jimmer. They are not allowed to join the BNP because the BNP tells it's members to break the law. How can they belong to both the police and the BNP in those circumstances?

[bernardo]

The police force now has a specific policy of not allowing BNP members to join - this ban does not apply to other parties. I believe that this ban is unacceptable; if any police officer acts in a racist way in their job, then there are already disciplinary procedures to deal with it. BNP membership in itself should not be a bar to the police if the person keeps his/her political views private and does not allow them to influence the operation of the job unfairly.