My Boss Wanted To Know If The Picture On...
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Fitna
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Anyone seen the film?
If so, what do you think?
Is it offensive or does it just speak an unpleasant truth?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020472.php
If so, what do you think?
Is it offensive or does it just speak an unpleasant truth?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020472.php
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Gromit and Quinlad -
You are both very eloquent. You both have a way with words and sometimes you have both made me look hard at what I believe. But on this point � your inability to see the dangers of appeasement [the policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace] is simply wrong.
Sorry about this, but there is a term that describes you both on this issue � that term is �Useful idiots�.
The term a, �Useful Idiot� was first used to describe Soviet sympathizers in the West and the alleged attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question na�vely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.
A modern definition of �Useful Idiot� is this - �A term broadly used to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, or hostile government, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.�
I think that neither of you are idiots � I would like to make that absolutely clear.
But you are both advocating and supporting an ideology and religion that is completely at odds with Western values.
Do you believe that women are inferior to men?
Do you believe that grown men should be entitled to marry (and have sexual intercourse with) 9 year old girls?
Do you believe that women should not be educated (in anything other than scripture)?
Does a man have the 'right' to beat his wife?
You are both very eloquent. You both have a way with words and sometimes you have both made me look hard at what I believe. But on this point � your inability to see the dangers of appeasement [the policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace] is simply wrong.
Sorry about this, but there is a term that describes you both on this issue � that term is �Useful idiots�.
The term a, �Useful Idiot� was first used to describe Soviet sympathizers in the West and the alleged attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question na�vely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.
A modern definition of �Useful Idiot� is this - �A term broadly used to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, or hostile government, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.�
I think that neither of you are idiots � I would like to make that absolutely clear.
But you are both advocating and supporting an ideology and religion that is completely at odds with Western values.
Do you believe that women are inferior to men?
Do you believe that grown men should be entitled to marry (and have sexual intercourse with) 9 year old girls?
Do you believe that women should not be educated (in anything other than scripture)?
Does a man have the 'right' to beat his wife?
Cont...
I know the world is not black and white (even though my questions above request black/white answers) but I also know that appeasing Islam is the thin end of the wedge.
Islam's stated aim is to take over the world. Islam does not respect democracies and it does not respect human rights. These are Facts.
Do you really want Islamic value imposed upon you?
Are you too busy 'defending Human Rights' to see the wolf at your door?
I know the world is not black and white (even though my questions above request black/white answers) but I also know that appeasing Islam is the thin end of the wedge.
Islam's stated aim is to take over the world. Islam does not respect democracies and it does not respect human rights. These are Facts.
Do you really want Islamic value imposed upon you?
Are you too busy 'defending Human Rights' to see the wolf at your door?
OK, now Birdie has responded, let me put you out of your misery, Gromit (and alleviate Quinlad of his confusion). As a matter of fact I was talking about Muslims living in the west who enjoy the freedom of speech they would never have had in their homelands. How quick they are to march in protest at any perceived insult, and they lose no time in claiming their perceived rights, but they fall silent or find excuses when Islamic murderers strike and kill thousands of innocent people in the name of Allah. Yes, the Muslim Council of Britain make muffled politically correct mumblings at times, but very few Muslims have the courage to stand up and condemn these atrocities unequivocally - even though they and theirs could be aboard the next train that is blown up - and that offends me - so now you know.
And since you pushed the subject, Gromit, let�s see what you�ve had to say. Firstly you�ve naively likened the video to something Goebbels may have constructed, and secondly you say it doesn�t offend you. Well, your lack of indignation offends me because the content of this video is factual and it should offend every decent, rational, person on this planet, regardless of race, religion, colour, or creed. Then you deny the Koran influences these people, but you couldn�t be more wrong. You don�t seem to understand that they possess a totally different mindset - their whole lives are dictated by the Koran. This is the unalterable word of God - and, yes, they do believe the words of �murderous madmen�, because the Koran commands believers, in no uncertain terms, over and over again, to murder the unbeliever. Get your head out of the sand and read it, Gromit. (You too Quinlad). You WILL learn something.
And since you pushed the subject, Gromit, let�s see what you�ve had to say. Firstly you�ve naively likened the video to something Goebbels may have constructed, and secondly you say it doesn�t offend you. Well, your lack of indignation offends me because the content of this video is factual and it should offend every decent, rational, person on this planet, regardless of race, religion, colour, or creed. Then you deny the Koran influences these people, but you couldn�t be more wrong. You don�t seem to understand that they possess a totally different mindset - their whole lives are dictated by the Koran. This is the unalterable word of God - and, yes, they do believe the words of �murderous madmen�, because the Koran commands believers, in no uncertain terms, over and over again, to murder the unbeliever. Get your head out of the sand and read it, Gromit. (You too Quinlad). You WILL learn something.
Useful idiots. Interesting. Are you familiar with the phrase 'the power of nightmares'?
Here's a starter: https://www.youtube.com/watchv=eOlwbaPe2os
naomi, I'm sorry the Muslim Council's 'mumblings' aren't self-lacerating enough for you. But demanding moderate Muslims speak out against the extremist behaviour is a bit like expecting Tony Benn to clarify his stance every time a May Day protester smashes up a McDonalds, or expecting Norman Tebbit to distance himself from the nail bomber. I also didn't notice Anglicans speaking out against the death threats directed at BBC execs by Christian Voice during the Jerry Spinger: The Opera kerfuffle.
Leaving aside the fact that proganda can be entirely factual, clearly you're a student of the Koran. Shame you're not a student of human behaviour, or else you'd spot the dichotomy between the violent incitments of the book, and the normal, peaceful, same-as-you-and-me behaviour of almost all Muslims. Biding their time though aren't they? And how can anyone prove otherwise? ;-)
And as for this: Well, your lack of indignation offends me - oh come now. A cleverer man than me puts it best:
I hate offended people. They come in two flavours - huffy and whiny - and it's hard to know which is worst. The huffy ones are self-important, narcissistic authoritarians in love with the sound of their own booming disapproval, while the whiny, sparrowlike ones are so annoying and sickly and ill-equipped for life on Earth you just want to smack them round the head until they stop crying and grow up. Combined, they're the very worst people on the planet - 20 times worse than child molesters, and I say that not because it's true (it isn't), but because it'll upset them unnecessarily, and these readers deserve to be upset unnecessarily, morning, noon and night, every sodding day,
Here's a starter: https://www.youtube.com/watchv=eOlwbaPe2os
naomi, I'm sorry the Muslim Council's 'mumblings' aren't self-lacerating enough for you. But demanding moderate Muslims speak out against the extremist behaviour is a bit like expecting Tony Benn to clarify his stance every time a May Day protester smashes up a McDonalds, or expecting Norman Tebbit to distance himself from the nail bomber. I also didn't notice Anglicans speaking out against the death threats directed at BBC execs by Christian Voice during the Jerry Spinger: The Opera kerfuffle.
Leaving aside the fact that proganda can be entirely factual, clearly you're a student of the Koran. Shame you're not a student of human behaviour, or else you'd spot the dichotomy between the violent incitments of the book, and the normal, peaceful, same-as-you-and-me behaviour of almost all Muslims. Biding their time though aren't they? And how can anyone prove otherwise? ;-)
And as for this: Well, your lack of indignation offends me - oh come now. A cleverer man than me puts it best:
I hate offended people. They come in two flavours - huffy and whiny - and it's hard to know which is worst. The huffy ones are self-important, narcissistic authoritarians in love with the sound of their own booming disapproval, while the whiny, sparrowlike ones are so annoying and sickly and ill-equipped for life on Earth you just want to smack them round the head until they stop crying and grow up. Combined, they're the very worst people on the planet - 20 times worse than child molesters, and I say that not because it's true (it isn't), but because it'll upset them unnecessarily, and these readers deserve to be upset unnecessarily, morning, noon and night, every sodding day,
Quinlad, it depends upon your interpretation of the word 'offend'. Perhaps, in your case, you would understand the word 'appal' more easily. And if you think I am not a student of human behaviour, you couldn't be more wrong there either. Odd how you continue to make assumptions that have no relevance to reality, and odd that you've either failed to understand, or have under-estimated, or have completely ignored the ideology that we're discussing, which is incomparable to any other ideology on earth, and hence your analogies bear no relation to the subject at hand. Odd too how you say things to me like 'Biding their time though, aren't they', when that was never my suggestion. You'd make an interesting case for study.
naomi24
I took the question "is it offensive" to be asking whether the film could be objected to by people who do not like it. There have been protests in the Islamic world and it has been called offensive. The questioner posed an either or question. I said it did not offend me.
That is not the same as saying terrorist atrocities do not offend me. They do. I was answering that the film was not offensive, not that terrorism wasn't offensive to me.
Then you deny the Koran influences these people Er, no I don't. In my first post I wrote "The same with al qaeda saying the Koran tells them to kill their enemies.
birdie1971
I have no sympathy with Islam. I would rather it didn't exist as well. I do not agree with much in the Koran. I would say the same about Christianity.
But I do not want to fight 1.2billion people (correct figure this time) who have it as their faith. I have met many muslims abroad, and have friends in this country that are followers. They differ greatly. They are not all the same. You seem to be saying they are, and that they are all bad (because they follow a bad book).
The people who commit terrorist atrocities and the preachers that glorify them do not represent all muslims even if they and you think they do.
I know you do not like my analogies, but here is another one. The Christian nuns who helped in the genocide massacres in Rwanda did so while working as Christian Missionaries. The Bible was their tool. This is not a reason to believe that all Christians would practice genocide if given the chance and that Christianity should be fought.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is _13_128/ai_76915684
I took the question "is it offensive" to be asking whether the film could be objected to by people who do not like it. There have been protests in the Islamic world and it has been called offensive. The questioner posed an either or question. I said it did not offend me.
That is not the same as saying terrorist atrocities do not offend me. They do. I was answering that the film was not offensive, not that terrorism wasn't offensive to me.
Then you deny the Koran influences these people Er, no I don't. In my first post I wrote "The same with al qaeda saying the Koran tells them to kill their enemies.
birdie1971
I have no sympathy with Islam. I would rather it didn't exist as well. I do not agree with much in the Koran. I would say the same about Christianity.
But I do not want to fight 1.2billion people (correct figure this time) who have it as their faith. I have met many muslims abroad, and have friends in this country that are followers. They differ greatly. They are not all the same. You seem to be saying they are, and that they are all bad (because they follow a bad book).
The people who commit terrorist atrocities and the preachers that glorify them do not represent all muslims even if they and you think they do.
I know you do not like my analogies, but here is another one. The Christian nuns who helped in the genocide massacres in Rwanda did so while working as Christian Missionaries. The Bible was their tool. This is not a reason to believe that all Christians would practice genocide if given the chance and that Christianity should be fought.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is _13_128/ai_76915684
Gromit, You said 'It is true the terrorists claimed the Koran ordered them to commit these murderous acts, but that does not mean they are right', and on Chakka's thread you said 'The Koran did not command people to fly planes into the World Trade Centre'. Both statements give the impression that you feel the Koran holds little influence, whereas in actual fact it holds enormous influence - and it does command believers to kill the infidel.
No, Muslims aren't all the same, but I think it's very naive to underrate the irrationality of Islam, or the horrific and antiquated laws, commands and punishments contained within the Koran, or the extent to which it exerts influence over believers, which is what it appears you are doing. There is no doubt that there are more extremists now than there ever were, and even in cosmopolitan cities such as Cairo, the burkha is becoming more and more commonplace. Since the Koran does not command woman to cover themselves completely, I have to ask why?
I've travelled widely, Gromit, and I've seen some appalling sights. To give you an example, imagine a man wrapped in old newspapers lying in the street dying of an easily curable disease. So why doesn't he go to a doctor? Why? Because Allah willed that this disease be visited upon him, and therefore he accepts it - and he dies needlessly. That is the mindset we are talking about. In Islam the will of Allah is paramount - and Allah�s will is there in black and white in the Koran - and that's the point I'm trying to get across to you. Read it.
Cont�.
No, Muslims aren't all the same, but I think it's very naive to underrate the irrationality of Islam, or the horrific and antiquated laws, commands and punishments contained within the Koran, or the extent to which it exerts influence over believers, which is what it appears you are doing. There is no doubt that there are more extremists now than there ever were, and even in cosmopolitan cities such as Cairo, the burkha is becoming more and more commonplace. Since the Koran does not command woman to cover themselves completely, I have to ask why?
I've travelled widely, Gromit, and I've seen some appalling sights. To give you an example, imagine a man wrapped in old newspapers lying in the street dying of an easily curable disease. So why doesn't he go to a doctor? Why? Because Allah willed that this disease be visited upon him, and therefore he accepts it - and he dies needlessly. That is the mindset we are talking about. In Islam the will of Allah is paramount - and Allah�s will is there in black and white in the Koran - and that's the point I'm trying to get across to you. Read it.
Cont�.
�.Cont
There are a few British questions and answers websites that make interesting reading. Only a few weeks ago I read a question from a pregnant woman which went something like this. The midwife had advised this woman to stop breast feeding the young child she already had because it would be better for her health and for that of the unborn baby. Since the Koran commands women to breast feed their children until they are two, instead of immediately taking the professional�s advice, the woman asked the Imam if that would be allowed. That will give you some idea of what I�m talking about - and that�s a Muslim woman in Britain.
Incidentally, the Bible is bad enough, but you can�t compare its content to that of the Koran, and neither can you really compare Islam to Christianity, other than to say both religions revere the same God.
Anyway, good discussion.
There are a few British questions and answers websites that make interesting reading. Only a few weeks ago I read a question from a pregnant woman which went something like this. The midwife had advised this woman to stop breast feeding the young child she already had because it would be better for her health and for that of the unborn baby. Since the Koran commands women to breast feed their children until they are two, instead of immediately taking the professional�s advice, the woman asked the Imam if that would be allowed. That will give you some idea of what I�m talking about - and that�s a Muslim woman in Britain.
Incidentally, the Bible is bad enough, but you can�t compare its content to that of the Koran, and neither can you really compare Islam to Christianity, other than to say both religions revere the same God.
Anyway, good discussion.
Naomi24,
It is indeed sad that the old Muslim dies because he has been told that it is Allah's will, and that a British Muslim woman puts her health at risk by listening to dodgy advice from a Iman.
But listening to claptrap from their religious leaders is not exclusive to Muslims. How many babies die in Africa because some Christian religious leader in Rome forbids their parents using birth control. How many have died from disease and hunger because God apparently says it is a sin to use johnnies?
It is indeed sad that the old Muslim dies because he has been told that it is Allah's will, and that a British Muslim woman puts her health at risk by listening to dodgy advice from a Iman.
But listening to claptrap from their religious leaders is not exclusive to Muslims. How many babies die in Africa because some Christian religious leader in Rome forbids their parents using birth control. How many have died from disease and hunger because God apparently says it is a sin to use johnnies?
Most practising christians in UK respect Rome and their ethics but use birth-control on their own conscience.....as no such commandment of non-usage was given by God. We are certainly not murdered/stoned/killed or ex-communicated for using birth-controlled. As for Africa, that is affording birth-control and nothing to do with christianity.
I am shocked by this video and never knew the hatred for non-muslims was so deeply felt & such a threat by muslims.
Never mind global-warming affecting our g.kids - it seems we have a closer threat in our midst - unless our muslim neighbours show their stance for a better life for all.
I am shocked by this video and never knew the hatred for non-muslims was so deeply felt & such a threat by muslims.
Never mind global-warming affecting our g.kids - it seems we have a closer threat in our midst - unless our muslim neighbours show their stance for a better life for all.
Noami24,
My argument throughout is that the terrorists and hate preachers are extremists. They are not represntative of the faith, the Normal interpretation of the Koran, or the vast majority of it's followers. I believe that Islam is just as benign or dangerous as any other religion. That is why I am constantly comparing bad aspects of Islam with bad aspects of Christianity.
There are undeniably Islamic clerics that consider anyone who does not belong to their particular brand of Islam to be worthless in the eyes of Allah. That can mean westerners, or it can mean followers of a different sect of Islam, they do not discriminate, they hate them all.
And there are undeniably people who for whatever reason hate the west. Whether it is because we have invaded their country. Or we support their corrupt Governments, or because we have displaced one people from their land and imposed another lot of people who they don't like. Or just because they consider us to be immoral, whatever their grudge, they are prepared to kill and be killed with the promise of a place in heaven. They may then be inspired by the hate preachers and believe and commit their murders.
What Fitna tries to do is present the hate prechers and the terrorists as the norm. If the film's message was anti terrorists and anti hate preacher then I could support it. however, the message is anti Islam, anti Koran, anti 1.2 billion people in the world.
I am no supporter of Islam. But I resent falsehoods being presented as the truth. I don't like being lied to. I don't like a wrong conclusion being used to start a holy war.
I am not complacent. I am not burying my head in the sand. I am all for rooting out terrorists in our midst, and am against attempts to follow traditional customs (which have no Koranic basis) which are not compatible with our laws.
As populations mix more than any time in our history.he
My argument throughout is that the terrorists and hate preachers are extremists. They are not represntative of the faith, the Normal interpretation of the Koran, or the vast majority of it's followers. I believe that Islam is just as benign or dangerous as any other religion. That is why I am constantly comparing bad aspects of Islam with bad aspects of Christianity.
There are undeniably Islamic clerics that consider anyone who does not belong to their particular brand of Islam to be worthless in the eyes of Allah. That can mean westerners, or it can mean followers of a different sect of Islam, they do not discriminate, they hate them all.
And there are undeniably people who for whatever reason hate the west. Whether it is because we have invaded their country. Or we support their corrupt Governments, or because we have displaced one people from their land and imposed another lot of people who they don't like. Or just because they consider us to be immoral, whatever their grudge, they are prepared to kill and be killed with the promise of a place in heaven. They may then be inspired by the hate preachers and believe and commit their murders.
What Fitna tries to do is present the hate prechers and the terrorists as the norm. If the film's message was anti terrorists and anti hate preacher then I could support it. however, the message is anti Islam, anti Koran, anti 1.2 billion people in the world.
I am no supporter of Islam. But I resent falsehoods being presented as the truth. I don't like being lied to. I don't like a wrong conclusion being used to start a holy war.
I am not complacent. I am not burying my head in the sand. I am all for rooting out terrorists in our midst, and am against attempts to follow traditional customs (which have no Koranic basis) which are not compatible with our laws.
As populations mix more than any time in our history.he
No birdie - you are absolutely right.
I have seen the video and I thought it set out the problems we are going to have in the future very clearly.
If any of you remember Enoch Powell he was also badly treated by the establishment because he said what he truly believed, and forget about the "rivers of blood". That phrase was never in his speech and was coined by the media.
The point is that the West has been sleeping on the job for the past 50 years or more, and the trouble we have been laying up for ourselves will be visited upon our children and grandchildren.
It is they I feel sorry for.
I have seen the video and I thought it set out the problems we are going to have in the future very clearly.
If any of you remember Enoch Powell he was also badly treated by the establishment because he said what he truly believed, and forget about the "rivers of blood". That phrase was never in his speech and was coined by the media.
The point is that the West has been sleeping on the job for the past 50 years or more, and the trouble we have been laying up for ourselves will be visited upon our children and grandchildren.
It is they I feel sorry for.
Gromit, I know what you're saying, but the video isn't lying to you. Of course Wilders has an agenda, as do the Muslim extremists, but why shouldn't he make a film showing what they've done? And before you say it again, I know all Muslims aren't the same, but does that mean we should pretend that these atrocities haven't happened, or that Muslim clerics don't spout hatred? They have, and they do. This film is factual, these people are barbaric, and I don't understand why you feel they warrant anyone's respect. They don�t. Since there's no doubt that Muslim extremism is growing, I feel it's foolhardy to dismiss the purpose out of hand, apparently in the hope that it will eventually go away. Make no mistake. It won't. It would be wonderful if people could live side by side in harmony, and I truly hope that your faith in the peaceful nature of Islam is rewarded, but I have my doubts. I fear Prescott is absolutely right. What we see arising now will be the legacy we leave our children and grandchildren. What a sad world.
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