Was England safer?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....oting-Canterbury.html

Was England a safer country before the huge influx of foreign nationals?

[Sqad]

sp1814.....thank you that is a most valuable link.

To summarise that chart:

A gradual rise on prison population from 1940 until 1995 when there was a spectacular rise in the prison population, an obvious steep cliff-like climb.

What happened in 1995 to account for this?

[123everton]

Crime has risen terribly in recent years, just on the basis of my own line of work the violence has gotten worse.
All the assaults that have been reported to me, with one exception, in the twenty years of driving a bus all the assailants were white British.
Offys didn't all have their stuff behind glass, kids didn't go around murdering each other with terrible regualarity just for walking down someone elses street (that's new in England) but none of this I connect to racism.
I connect it to the increased separation between the people and their influence on the people in power.
This gap turned into a gulf in the 80s.

[Sqad]

Everton.......interesting comment.

///I connect it to the increased separation between the people and their influence on the people in power. ////

Can you expound on this?

[123everton]

I'll do my best, in the 80s the government shut down business in the north, what little we had left moved south.
The Thatcher government was the first (I can think of) that governed purely for the people who voted for it and rode roughshod over the rest.

[jackthehat]

123Everton - please do not muddy the waters by advancing empirical evidence which will de-rail the thrust of AOG's thread. AOG wants evidence (anecdotal will suffice) to support his contention that 'them darkies/furriners' are to blame for this country's present ills.

[Sqad]

Everton, just before I settle down to the Blues v. Reds.

I do understand what you are saying and basically I agree. I may be wrong, but I always felt that Liverpool did not feel the force of immigration as did many other parts of the country...Birmingham, Bradford, Leicester......I may well be doing Liverpool an injustice.

I have debated this very same topic on many occasions and it is interesting that the present generation do not accept that the UK is a more dangerous place than in the 50's and 60's .....probably because they never experienced that era.

I am going to settle to the match..........me?.......EVERTON.............
LOL

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// By the way, isn't comparing immigration since the 50s, which saw the first wave of West Indian migrant, with a crime committed a Lithuanian in 2009 casting the net a little wide?///

If you as a black person are trying to get me to state that all crime is due to the influx of people with darker skins, you are not going to succeed. It matters not if they are West Indian, Lithuanian or Outer Mongolian.

If they have come to this country and then committed a crime, then the hypothesis is, if that individual had not been allowed into our country then that crime would not have been committed.

It is obvious that crime, in particular violent crime, rape, stabbings, shootings, murders etc, cannot be firmly planted solely at the immigrants door.

But if one reads, listens to or views the media, it would seem that certain crimes seem the majority domain of certain racial groups.

For example if one reads certain reports on crime, even if at the time no one has been named, one can mostly assume that it has been committed by a certain group, and in the majority cases one is correct.

[sp1814]

So when you read the report that you linked to, dis you automatically think "I bet that was a Lithuanian"?

[sp1814]

Sqad pointed out something that I failed to notice...

Why has there been a sudden (huge) jump in the prison population in the past 15 years?

A jump like that cannot be explained away by blaming the expansion of the European Union. So passing the question back to you - why do YOU think there's been a sudden rise?

[sp1814]

"But if one reads, listens to or views the media, it would seem that certain crimes seem the majority domain of certain racial groups."

Fair point - like child abduction/rape/murder.

It DOES seem like there's a correlation to specific offences and certain crimes. However there are also correlations between certain crimes (eg. mugging) and others offences (eg. tax fraud), which can be delineated on a socio-economic basis.

Crime stats can be sub-divided in a number of ways - by race, geography, sex, economic background, drug use etc. To look at one whilst ignoring all others can you you up a blind alley. Race (and to a lesser extent), nation of origin, SHOULD always be taken into account, but I'd question whether it has an overriding relevance when dealing with statistical analysis.

I think it's way more complex than that.

[jno]

"But if one reads, listens to or views the media, it would seem that certain crimes seem the majority domain of certain racial groups. "

No chance that the media reporting might be in any way unbalanced or inaccurate, I suppose?

[Sqad]

jno.......maybe.....but a question.

If you were walking home at 11. at night in South London and you were "mugged" which ethnic race would you "guess" would be involved?"

That is an oversimplification I appreciate, but certain crimes are indeed statistically more common in certain ethnic groups.

[sp1814]

Sqad

Likewise, if you had a flat on the outskirts of the Gorbals, and your place was burgled by a heroin addict. What race do you think he'd be?

In your instance, my guess would be black, Asian or white. I say that because I've lived in London for over 40 years and what I've seen recently is that 'street gangs' have become decidedly mixed in their racial profile.

In my example, my guess is that the burglar would be white.

What does that tell us?

Would a victim of a black mugger feel any better had they been white?

Would the burglary victim feel better had their druggie been black?

[Gromit]

Sqad,

That is a geographic argument not a crime/ethnicity argument.

If I was walking home at 11 at night and I was mugged, the culprits would almost certainly be White because I live in a White area. So, if we take ares in isolation, we do not see what is acty happening overall.

[Gromit]

So, we have established that crime has been rising since 1900 except for the time AOG was outof the country fighting the Hun.

Surely that must mean AOG is responsible for the crimes.

[Sqad]

sp1814 I asked for my own edification and you have both answered my query.

I don't think that crime figures can be disassociated with geography.

gromit

////So, we have established that crime has been rising since 1900 except for the time AOG was outof the country fighting the Hun.
Surely that must mean AOG is responsible for the crimes.////

The marked acceleration of prison population started in 1995.....but I took your answer as mischievous and "tongue in cheek" ;-)

My question has yet to be addressed :

///A gradual rise on prison population from 1940 until 1995 when there was a spectacular rise in the prison population, an obvious steep cliff-like climb.
What happened in 1995 to account for this?///

[sp1814]

Sqad

The question regarding the rise in prison population since 1995 is a tricky one to answer - have there been more crimes, or the same number of crimes with a better detection rate? Are judges passing more custodial sentences overall, or has there been a rise in custodial sentences for nob-violent offences?

I think you could write a whole thesis on that. Looking at the available data, I honestly don't know the answer.

[Sqad]

sp1814....I agree, I am not sure what we deduce from these figures except, for some reason, we have become a more violent society.

[sp1814]

That should read 'non-violent'.

Hate to think what a 'nob-violent' crime might be.

[Sqad]

sp1814.....LOL LOL it is a crime committed in an upper class area.