ChatterBank0 min ago
USA Health Care Bill
Why is there such hatred and vitriol against this bill in the US? Is it led by the Insurance companies?
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Just to mention prescription charges as youngmafbog called them ridiculously priced. I have to have 5 prescriptions per month. Say £7.00 per prescrip, x 5 x 12 = £420.00. I pay for a Pre-Paid Prescription Card which works out at roughly £101.00 per year. A saving of £319.00 per year. I'll be 60 in the not too distant future so they will be free And my husband as a diabetic is exempt!!
I think there was a window of opportunity to establish universal health care free at the point of delivery.
The US has missed that window
After some time in the 60s/70s(?) Healthcare became so expensive that the electorate would baulk at the cost - the growing number of reasonably well off people would have private arrangements and wouldn't support a Universal system and private businesses would be able to mobilise these issues to protect their financial interests.
Health makes big profits in the US and Obama will not be able to shut them up by "stuffing their mouths with gold" as Bevan claimed he had to with the doctors over here.
If you look at the quality of service that the US gets compared to the percentage of their GDP they spend it is not impressive
That is unsurprising given the number of shareholders that have to get a cut out of so many health businesses.
Share holders who will fight like mad at the thought of cheap competition.
The US has missed that window
After some time in the 60s/70s(?) Healthcare became so expensive that the electorate would baulk at the cost - the growing number of reasonably well off people would have private arrangements and wouldn't support a Universal system and private businesses would be able to mobilise these issues to protect their financial interests.
Health makes big profits in the US and Obama will not be able to shut them up by "stuffing their mouths with gold" as Bevan claimed he had to with the doctors over here.
If you look at the quality of service that the US gets compared to the percentage of their GDP they spend it is not impressive
That is unsurprising given the number of shareholders that have to get a cut out of so many health businesses.
Share holders who will fight like mad at the thought of cheap competition.
The people who run the health insurance companies and hospitals have got VERY rich on the US health care system.
It is mainly them who are putting out "scare" stories to frighten the US population.
Theey equate a "national health service" as one step away from commuism.
If you watch the film Sicko by Micheal Moore it makes you ashamed of the US health industry.
It is mainly them who are putting out "scare" stories to frighten the US population.
Theey equate a "national health service" as one step away from commuism.
If you watch the film Sicko by Micheal Moore it makes you ashamed of the US health industry.
Annual medical costs per average family in UK and US are not easy to compare but these are the 2009 figures issued by the UN : USA £8822 UK £4114.
A friend of mine told me of their neighbour with 3 children in the US who had been paying a £900 a month premium and a few months ago his wife entered hospital for 6 weeks. When she returned home they received a bill for £700,000 of which their insurance company paid half. His premium has now been increased to £1200 a month and a suggestion that he might like to change his insurer.
A friend of mine told me of their neighbour with 3 children in the US who had been paying a £900 a month premium and a few months ago his wife entered hospital for 6 weeks. When she returned home they received a bill for £700,000 of which their insurance company paid half. His premium has now been increased to £1200 a month and a suggestion that he might like to change his insurer.
-- answer removed --
there is a thread here from last year
http://www.theanswerb...Question796700-1.html
Clanad is, I suspect, a Republican, and puts their case clearly.
http://www.theanswerb...Question796700-1.html
Clanad is, I suspect, a Republican, and puts their case clearly.
As usual, jno is (how do you say in the U.K.) spot on?
Look, Republicans offered a number of ideas... some good, some not so good, as part of health care reform. The Democrats, who hold large majorities in both the Senate and House of Representatives, (as well as the Presidency) were having no part of it. It quickly becam crystal clear that Obamacare (as it's been called) was really a reflection of his and others on the far left, social bent. Just before his inauguration, Obama said "... just five more days before we fundamentally transform America..." only a few stalwart citizens saw exactly what he meant.
The health care industry here in the U.S. constitutes roughly 1/6th of the entire domestic gross product (GDP). Control of that huge of a part of the economy tranmits huge political power to whomever wields that control. We will see additional movement to control even larger segments until the "fundamental transformation" has become reality and our nearly 250 year old experiment in "government of the people, for the people and by the people" comes to an anguished end.
Look, the Republicans (far from perfect) proposed small steps that would have led to corrections in the health system that nearly everyone agreed were fair and equitable. Such as I mentioned in the previous exchange posted by jno, in addition to portability... being able to take one's insurance with them if moving from one job to another.
A couple of corrections... the health insurance industry here in the U.S. has a profit margin of aroun 2% to 4%, compared to averages for most other businesses of around 15% to 18%. (What's the old saw... tell a lie ofen enough and it becomes the truth?) If the government confiscated the entire yearly profit from every insurance company in the U.S., it would fund about 3 WEEKS (pardon the shout-out) of health costs.
(Contd.)
Look, Republicans offered a number of ideas... some good, some not so good, as part of health care reform. The Democrats, who hold large majorities in both the Senate and House of Representatives, (as well as the Presidency) were having no part of it. It quickly becam crystal clear that Obamacare (as it's been called) was really a reflection of his and others on the far left, social bent. Just before his inauguration, Obama said "... just five more days before we fundamentally transform America..." only a few stalwart citizens saw exactly what he meant.
The health care industry here in the U.S. constitutes roughly 1/6th of the entire domestic gross product (GDP). Control of that huge of a part of the economy tranmits huge political power to whomever wields that control. We will see additional movement to control even larger segments until the "fundamental transformation" has become reality and our nearly 250 year old experiment in "government of the people, for the people and by the people" comes to an anguished end.
Look, the Republicans (far from perfect) proposed small steps that would have led to corrections in the health system that nearly everyone agreed were fair and equitable. Such as I mentioned in the previous exchange posted by jno, in addition to portability... being able to take one's insurance with them if moving from one job to another.
A couple of corrections... the health insurance industry here in the U.S. has a profit margin of aroun 2% to 4%, compared to averages for most other businesses of around 15% to 18%. (What's the old saw... tell a lie ofen enough and it becomes the truth?) If the government confiscated the entire yearly profit from every insurance company in the U.S., it would fund about 3 WEEKS (pardon the shout-out) of health costs.
(Contd.)
(Contd.)
Additionally, the pharmaceutical companies in the U.S. provide the world about 68% of all new drugs, yet take the biggest chance of making a profit. Their profit margin is better... around the average for all industries at 15% to 18%. Currently, their patents on new drugs are limited to 10 years... even less in some cases at which time anyone can manufactuer their drugs.
I can't speak with any knowledge on the U.K. system. If you're happy with it... good for you. However here, we do see a lot of evidence of the Canadian system. I think it says it all when the Prime Minister of the Maritime Provinces elected to come to the U.S. just a few months ago at his own cost for medical treatment that was avialable in Canada.
The recently passed Bill doesn't provide ANY benefits until the year 2014. The costs, especially the tax increases begin immediately. Additionally, to help finance the massive costs the Democrats reduced the Medicare budget (elderly people) by 1/2 billion (with a "B") dollars. The Bill also requires every American to buy insurance or face a substantial penalty. It greatly affects any economic recovery since it also requires "every" business, large or small, to provide insurance for their employees.
Finally, the other large government run services ... Social Security (retirement benefits for the elderly) Medicare/Medicaid (hospitalization for the elderly or otherwise needy) are all broke, broke, broke...
I said finally, but let me add... doesn't it appeal to the vaunted British appreciation for ironic humor to admire a guy like Michael Moore, who hates captialism and everything it represents while having made his millions within that same system?
Additionally, the pharmaceutical companies in the U.S. provide the world about 68% of all new drugs, yet take the biggest chance of making a profit. Their profit margin is better... around the average for all industries at 15% to 18%. Currently, their patents on new drugs are limited to 10 years... even less in some cases at which time anyone can manufactuer their drugs.
I can't speak with any knowledge on the U.K. system. If you're happy with it... good for you. However here, we do see a lot of evidence of the Canadian system. I think it says it all when the Prime Minister of the Maritime Provinces elected to come to the U.S. just a few months ago at his own cost for medical treatment that was avialable in Canada.
The recently passed Bill doesn't provide ANY benefits until the year 2014. The costs, especially the tax increases begin immediately. Additionally, to help finance the massive costs the Democrats reduced the Medicare budget (elderly people) by 1/2 billion (with a "B") dollars. The Bill also requires every American to buy insurance or face a substantial penalty. It greatly affects any economic recovery since it also requires "every" business, large or small, to provide insurance for their employees.
Finally, the other large government run services ... Social Security (retirement benefits for the elderly) Medicare/Medicaid (hospitalization for the elderly or otherwise needy) are all broke, broke, broke...
I said finally, but let me add... doesn't it appeal to the vaunted British appreciation for ironic humor to admire a guy like Michael Moore, who hates captialism and everything it represents while having made his millions within that same system?
Phew clanad!!!! Well I did ask didn't I? Thank you for giving me your point of view.
You say that the Democrats hold large majorities in both the Senate and the House of Representatives.... so isn't that what democracy is all about? The party that wins the majority of the people's votes hold the power to implement their policies. Simplistic, but true.
You say that the Democrats hold large majorities in both the Senate and the House of Representatives.... so isn't that what democracy is all about? The party that wins the majority of the people's votes hold the power to implement their policies. Simplistic, but true.
I have seen a programme which shows a travelling pro-bono medical facility it stops in a school and gives treatment to those who cannot afford it all of those people would take treatment in Canada.
The pharmaceutical argument is an old saw tell a lie etc, all of these companies produce a generic product of thier drug which is far cheaper than the proprietary versions they sell, but they sell this into the third world because the 3rd world cannot afford the more expensive version. Why don't they sell this to the US?
If you go into any supermarket chain and you will find own brand Asprin, Paracetomol etc these are about 1/10 of the price of named versions but they are just as effective but people belive the more expensive is better.
The largest company in the US (World) Johnson & Johnson is being sued by the government for illegal marketing practicise. Kickbacks to a company called Omnicare this involves 10's of millions of dollars. This tells you all you need to know about the integrity of these companies.
Doctors in the US are pain on average double that of doctors in the rest of the world.
The infant mortality rate in the US is higher than any country in Western europe.
These facts are easily accessible but its far easier to take propaganda and portray it as fact.
And I ask one more time what decent human being would'nt want people to have access to health care.
The pharmaceutical argument is an old saw tell a lie etc, all of these companies produce a generic product of thier drug which is far cheaper than the proprietary versions they sell, but they sell this into the third world because the 3rd world cannot afford the more expensive version. Why don't they sell this to the US?
If you go into any supermarket chain and you will find own brand Asprin, Paracetomol etc these are about 1/10 of the price of named versions but they are just as effective but people belive the more expensive is better.
The largest company in the US (World) Johnson & Johnson is being sued by the government for illegal marketing practicise. Kickbacks to a company called Omnicare this involves 10's of millions of dollars. This tells you all you need to know about the integrity of these companies.
Doctors in the US are pain on average double that of doctors in the rest of the world.
The infant mortality rate in the US is higher than any country in Western europe.
These facts are easily accessible but its far easier to take propaganda and portray it as fact.
And I ask one more time what decent human being would'nt want people to have access to health care.
Dave,
You're asking two completely different questions here.
1) what decent human being wouldn't want people to have access to health care? Easy answer: No one.
2) Why do some oppose the health care bill just passed in the US? Some do it to score political points, certainly, but many genuinely believe that the bill is simply not the best way for people to have access to health care. Clanad lays out the case above.
You're asking two completely different questions here.
1) what decent human being wouldn't want people to have access to health care? Easy answer: No one.
2) Why do some oppose the health care bill just passed in the US? Some do it to score political points, certainly, but many genuinely believe that the bill is simply not the best way for people to have access to health care. Clanad lays out the case above.
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