Belgium bans the Burka.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....-faces-draft-law.html

How is it that Belgium and it seems soon other European countries can ban the Burka, yet if we tried to implement this ruling in the UK, the European Court of Human Rights would soon be down on us?

[DrFilth]

not like the bbc to bend things ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8652861.stm

[123everton]

I'm happy to stand corrected, it makes the Belgian authorities look even more ridiculous.
Imagine just how much money they've spent on this law, for what?
The curtailment of the lawful actions of 30 women.
To think that this is the same country unable to investigate this properly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux
Talk about fiddling while Zeebrugge burns.

[naomi24]

//Imagine just how much money they've spent on this law, for what?
The curtailment of the lawful actions of 30 women. //

Or even the curtailment of the previously lawful actions of a bunch of controlling men. Good for them!

[123everton]

Are you suggesting that 30 women have been forced to wear the burkha by their husbands?
Do you have proof?

[boxtops]

There is a cultural expectation in some households/societies, but I do know women who have chosen voluntarily to cover completely, they see it as an outward demonstration of thier piety, nothing to do with their husbands or family.

[woofgang]

But from where did the teaching come that it is an expression of piety? Certainly not from the Koran

[boxtops]

PS although these people do not cover, you could draw a similar analogy with people who live in fairly closed communities, eg the Amish people or the Bruderhof communities - the men and women all wear "uniform" but although they look a little eccentric, nobody condemns them. It is the facial covering - whether it be religious, crash helmet, balaclava, tights over the head - which is causing this problem and unforturnately or not, the totally-covered women in Belgium will be most affected. Don't forget that Turkey banned the hijab not so long ago, so presumably anyone wanting to wear an ordinary headscarf in that country can no longer do so (our Queen had better not go there wearing her usual day-out-in-the-country uniform!). As others have said, why should people go out "in disguise", but this will - unfortunately or not - affect the living conditions of these 30 ladies.

[boxtops]

Woofgang you are right, it's already been commented in this thread that the Koran advocates modesty, but so much of what has now become practice for Islamic peoples is cultural not religious, or has been "interpreted" over the last 1400 years into strict practice - e.g. if being modest is good (which most of us would agree with), then being very modest must be so much better, and therefore covering altogether must be the best. This is how some interpret and follow it, but by no means everyone, I know Muslim women who cover partially, or who wear the same clothes I do but wear a headscarf, or who wear "normal" clothing but still cover when they go to the mosque. The statement is also made that if a woman shows her forbidden areas (eg anywear except hands face and feet) then men will become inflamed and start lusting. This doesn't say much for men's self-control ! - but if the men never SEE any women uncovered except their own family at home, it can be argued that less covered women are seen as easy. Not very flattering either way, and to be honest, a topic which can be discussed until we are all blue in the face - there are so many interpretations and arguments out there.

[naomi24]

Everton, we've been through this before - and still you refuse to face facts. No doubt some women do choose to wear it, but you consistently refuse to ask 'why?', and moreover, whether they would they choose to shroud themselves from the rest of humanity if they hadn't been born into a culture where men have taught them that to show and ankle or an arm means they will be raped - or worse still, will displease Allah? These women have been born into a culture where men make the rules and women obey the rules, and they have been indoctrinated from birth. I watched a documentary where a little girl of 7 said that unless she covered her head, she would go to hell. Now seriously! What civilised society would willingly and purposefully fill a child's head with such appallingly evil horrors? The one you are supporting! Women raised in this tradition are second-class citizens who bow subserviently to their masters because that is how they've been programmed and they know no different. The men are the overlords. These women wouldn't recognise free choice if it jumped up and hit them on the head! And this is what you champion? Shame on you!

[naomi24]

And Everton ... I expect you're all for this too.

http://www.telegraph....lamic-dress-code.html

[naomi24]

Incidentally, the BBC link given quotes 30 women wearing the burqa, but it doesn't indicate the numbers wearing the niqab, which apart from leaving the eyes uncovered, is just as restrictive.

[vulcan]

Don't forget naomi24, it also causes earthquakes.

[naomi24]

Yes, Vulcan. Apparently they're due to the consequent agitation! Haaaaaa!

God! How can anyone ever take these people seriously?!

[modeller]

everton What do you mean by "The wearing of the veil etc is an expression of their faith in Islam." It is not in the Koran. Neither is it in the Hadith which is the second most important book of Islam.
As for the ban for security reasons lets not forget on 3 occasions suicide bombers were wearing Burkas.

[Zeuhl]

We can debate estimates of how many current wearers will be affected by legislation to allow a view of the face.

But there must be many more women who are moderate or integrated muslims or from cultures where face covering is not the norm e.g. Indonesians or malaysians who have chosen to live in UK (or Belgium) in the hope that they can escape this kind of fundamentalist repression.

Moderate muslims - men and women - really need to speak out and stand up to this because most of them came to this country for a way of life removed from this sort of mediaevalist fundamentalism.

[naomi24]

^^ I agree.

[123everton]

Modeller, if you asked them why they wear it, then that's what they'd tell you.
Islam is as diverse as any other religion.
I can take it as read that there's no proof that these 30 women have been forced to wear the veil, furthermore it's entirely speculation as to whether they've been brainwashed or as to what level these women have been educated.
From what I've seen whether to wear the veil within Islam is a conversation many women have amongst themselves reguarly, this intervention helps nobody.
Turkey is a very poor example with regards to arguments supporting the ban, check it out and you'll see why.

[naomi24]

Everton,// if you asked them why they wear it, then that's what they'd tell you //

You aren't listening again. Of course that's what they'd tell you because that is what they're brought up to believe. Do you really not understand that? God! I feel like a parrot that's banging its head against a brick wall!

OK, I'll give you an example. My Muslim friend comes from Malaysia and is a highly educated and successful lady who wears western clothes and is married to an English university lecturer. Nevertheless, much to my chagrin, where men are concerned, she is subservient. I nag her and tell her to speak up for herself, but she says she can't because that's the way she's been programmed, which is precisely what we're saying here. Incidentally, she hates the Imams and she detests the fundamentalist culture that you are supporting. It scares the hell out of her! Now if she is intelligent enough to acknowledge that she has been indoctrinated by that culture, and to see the inequalities and the discrimination it promotes, why aren't you? My guess is because you're a blinkered religious apologist who will thoughtlessly defend religion regardless of the doctrine it espouses, and regardless of the people it damages.

[123everton]

For all your rhetoric you've still not produced one shred of evidence to support your contention that these 30 women are being forced to wear the burkha, or that they've been brain washed.
Is your friend Malayan Oriental, Chinese, Indian or Tamil?
It doesn't really matter much, as all four of those societies are conservative by nature and paternalistic, which in reality is what she's expressing, however, her upbringing wasn't so oprp
essive that it denied her an education, nor will it deny her children an education, neither will it stop them picking up the baton and determining not to express their femininity in the way their mother does and with her full blessing. That is how you achieve enlightenment.
Your ability at guess work is poor.
I'm against fundamentalism, whether it be Islamic or Christian, I'm against nationalism whether it be Indian or British.
But above all else I am against fascism, and this law is an expression of fascism, at least the old fascists were honest about it not like the new ones.