gays in the army

[thepheebster]

people who are gay weren't allowed to join the army until 2000. why weren't they allowed?

[becks]

Probably becuase they were worried about gay men forming relationships which would then cause all manner of problems if called into a war.

[smudge]

Ditto for women.

[Hgrove]

I have a strong feeling that it has something to do with EC law; unfortunately I have not got time to research it properly, but here is what I remember.  There are European Directives on Equal Treatment in the workplace.  Years ago, a seaman in the Navy was sacked for being gay.  He went to an employment tribunal, then the matter went higher, eventually the English court referred a question to the ECJ on the interpretation of European law in the matter of equal treament.  I think as a result of the explanation the ECJ gave, the English court must have decided that the dismissal was unfair, following which, employment practices probably changed in the armed forces.  I can tell you the English case was: R v Secretary of State for Defence ex parte Perkins (1997) 3 CMLR 310, referred by the English Divisional Court under ref. Case C-168/97.  Unfortunately I have not got time to research it in detail.

[thepheebster]

becks, i understand what you're saying. but hetrosexual men and women were allowed in the army, surely they are just as capable as forming a relationship as gay people. it confueses me.

[kick3m0n]

it confuses you pheebster because it seemed to be a very dumb law.  It was always justified by saying that those within the army did not want to serve with gay men/women.  Sounds like blatant homophobia to me, but these same folk are willing to put their life on the line for us, so fair play, it's their choice and if that is genuinely how the majority feel, maybe that's how it should be.   Personally, I'm not so conceited or niaive as to think every gay women would fancy me (hot as I undoubtedly am!!), and know more than enough gay men to know they are often very choosey about who they fancy.   Maybe it's just that whole macho gung-ho b*****t that goes along with serving in the armed forces. There's been far more trouble with women on Navy boats sha gging blokes they work with than there has been with any gay service people doing anything untoward with straight colleagues.

[NapoleonSolo]

I was in the Air Force from 1984-93. The official reason the MOD used to ban Gays from the forces was for security reasons. I.E. Although homosexuality was no longer illegal with was still viewed as taboo in main stream society therefore anyone who was Gay could be targeted by "hostile" countries (just read that as the USSR) and blackmailed into providing restricted information. Yes I know it sounds daft but this is what they used to tell us.

[ursula62]

I was told by an ex SAS guy that it was because the squaddies were worried about being jumped by gay colleagues when they had to bivvy down in sleeping bags together. Basically the same reason the Navy had a lot of reluctance to allow women on board ship.

Course it's all rubbish, and it insultingly assumes that gay people (or women) will go to bed with anyone - willing or not. When in fact, most prefer to choose partners on the basis of sexual attraction just like the rest of us!

Thank goodness the MOD saw sense in the end and realised that gays are no different from anyone else and just want to serve their country in the best way they can!

[becks]

Sorry pheebster i didn't have time to go into what i meant by "all manner of problems". Yes the same goes for women, forming relationships would have a massive iimpact if couples were on the front line together male or female - would you react differently if you saw your partner gunned down, would you be able to focus on your own safety and your job? Then there's the problems it would cause in house - sleeping arrangements etc, how many straight guys wouldn't mind sleeping next to someone who's gay - there's enough ignorance out there that these soldiers could get beaten up or set upon by their own colleagues because of their sexuality. Now aside from the couples thing, if you hate gays, and let's face it there's going to be *some* homophobes in the army, all masculine etc, would you then not help someone in trouble if you didn't like them? And all this doesn't take into account the day-to-day bullying that could go on, would sergents pick on the gays? No? Could you honestly rule it out? If they were picked on - would they say it was because they are gay - playing the gay card so to speak? They say one in four footballers are gay - so why aren't any of them out? for similar reasons i would suspect - it just isn't accepted. I agree that it's wrong and no one should be sacked for their sexuality, but whether anything will change remains to be seen.

[grahamx-x]

Both myself and my partner are in the army and are getting married, we get everything a straight couple would get everyone knows on the barracks and they are ok about it, we couldnt be happier, we are both getting married in Uniform in a church. Why should we be different to anyone else if we want to fight for our country then we have the right to do it.