Who now can support them?

[anotheoldgit]

http://tinyurl.com/35qzyf9

Today Left or Right we have all come together on this special Remembrance Day, but who once again shows no respect?

Yes our so called fellow countrymen, the followers of Islam.

Interesting to note that once again after bearing much provocation from these British born traitors, it is members of the EDL, who the police target, while the Muslims are left free to spew their venom.

[Kromovaracun]

"I'm not so sure, Kromovaracun. The business of shouting Fire merits an exemption because of the immediate and considerable danger doing it might cause. [...] Distatsteful no doubt, but not dangerous. "

I know it's not directly analogous, but I think in terms of validity vis-a-vis freedom of speech, it's on par. This protest isn't just distasteful (which I'm pretty sure freedom of speech covers otherwise I'm screwed), but deliberately and outright malicious and inflammatory. I don't see freedom of speech as an end in itself - it serves a function and that's why it's there, and I don't see something like this as coming under its remit.

[Kromovaracun]

Everton, I love history as much as you do, but I really think you're kind of shoe-horning it in here.

[123everton]

That's a fair comment Krom, but different people will view the act of rememberance differently, perhaps, for them, even rightly.
The idea of imprisoning enemies of the state becomes dangerous when you consider all the implications.

[boxtops]

This is already being discussed on different thread - it's a tiny handful of extremists who don't know any better. They ought to read this http://www.metro.co.u...tten-on-armistice-day

[jno]

Kromovaracun, I think it's the immediacy of the threat that prompts the 'Fire' exclusion, not the malice or inflammatoriness. You might (for instance) tweet that the Palladium is burning, but that's unlikely to cause a fatal stampede; shouting Fire when you're actually in the theatre, on the other hand, may well do so.

Were the calls and placards of the protestors likely to lead anyone to rush out and kill a soldier straightaway? I'd have thought not. So they just join the other demands, urgings, pleas and pontifications that anyone might encounter during the day.

I'm not saying that every judge in the land would agree with me, the more so as we don't have any guarantee of free speech in the first place (I think the notion of the Fire exemption came from a US judge?). All the same, I'd be unhappy if these idiiots were locked up just for saying something I didn't like.

I feel the same way about the fool Tory calling for a Muslim journalist to be killed (though I have no problem with politicians beng held to higher standards than others: they're paid to act responsibly.)

[Kromovaracun]

Yes, I'm aware that the demonstration isn't invalid for the same reasons as the danger factor. My point is that it's not just factors leading to immediate danger that are exempt from the freedom of speech rule. And I disagree with you - I don't think the theater example is just based on danger.

I think the idea that everyone has freedom of speech purely as a moral entitlement is inaccurate. Freedom of speech exists in our society because it has an important function in helping it progress - some ideas are better than others and only if ideas and critiques can come from everywhere can we constantly test them with reason and discard the ones which don't work.

In the case of a protest like this however, I think it's one of those rare cases where there's little ambiguity. This wasn't designed to make a point and was a country mile away from being merely distasteful - it was very deliberately and maliciously designed to upset as many people as possible. I think there's a stark difference between maintaining a free political society (which is vitally important) and taking action against people who just knowingly set out to upset people. There's no such thing as a right to be not-offended, but there's also such a thing as civil responsibility. If I started throwing my feces at people from my window, I'd expect to be arrested for more than just the health and safety concerns.

[Kromovaracun]

"The idea of imprisoning enemies of the state becomes dangerous when you consider all the implications. "

Surely that's what we do anyway? Everyone in prison is an enemy of either the state or society for whatever reason - the difference between a free society and a authoritarian one is who it terms an enemy. For the reasons outlined above, I don't think it undermines our free society at all to prosecute these people.

[naomi24]

//Were the calls and placards of the protestors likely to lead anyone to rush out and kill a soldier straightaway? I'd have thought not.//

Maybe, or maybe not, but I wonder if you've considered the other possibility? Who's to say it wouldn't prompt someone to go out and kill a Muslim straightaway?

Krom, very well said.

[123everton]

Not quite Krom, these people are activists, it's their job to inflame the sensibilities of reactionaries.
That's what the black shirts did, that's what the brown shirts did, that's what the N.F did, that's what the B.N.P do and that's what the E.D.L do.
The trick is to marginilise the extremists on both sides and find consensus with the majority who just want to mind their own business.
If we weren't complicit in torture they'd find it harder to recruit.
The act of rememberance means different things to different people, people who were classed as British in 1945 are now viewed as foreigners, they could be born here, their parents could be born here, their grandparents could be born here, their uncle may have died fighting for us, but every day they're insulted because their different, it's mannah from heaven to radical groups.
I know the Chinese well, I've many many Chinese and Oriental friends, I've seen the abuse they suffer day in day out, but people say they're alright cos they don't complain, they do, it's just noone's listening.
Put it this way, China put a man into space in a rocket they designed and built, the Chinese were rightly very proud of this. I was in China at the time and people stopped in the street to watch it in orbit. Eamonn Holmes joked in his column that the name of the rocket sounded like a takeaway, China's a modern country so why do we produce pictures of Wishy Washy and Me So Sally to portray them.
To defeat these people we DO have to consider our attitudes towards others, and that's the biggest obstical to peace.