Me Or I?

[harryjones123]

I am hoping you can help me settle a dispute. Is the sentence, "Would you like to come to the cinema with Jenny and me?", correct or is it Jenny and I?
I am convinced it is the former but I have so far had the headmistress of my son's school and a professor of English from a notable university tell me that I am wrong...

[jno]

there are no laws, just conventions; but any grammar book (I imagine) would say the same

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_15/280-2730376-5225519?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=english+grammar+books&sprefix=english+grammar%2Caps%2C222

The Oxford ones are probably as authoritative as any.

[jno]

sorry, I don't understand your last question

[sandyRoe]

Should ER say: 'My husband and me...' ?

[Ellipsis]

> What is the purest source of reference for this? Is there an absolute authority we can turn to?

Try this ...

http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/i-or-me

[TheOtherHalf]

I would say me and Jenny

[jomifl]

'Let I know when you have made up your mind'

[jomifl]

or perhaps 'with Jenny herself and I myself' to make an additional point.

[ichkeria]

The Queen should say "My husband and I" if she's going on to say "...are very grateful" etc. and pace jno, "My husband and me" in all other circumstances ...

French is a bit different: it has two pronouns for the first person "je" only used as the subject of a verb (as in "I am" etc) and the emphatic "moi" where we would use "me" as in "Jenny and me"

[harryjones123]

Thanks Ellipses!
Thank you all for a fantastic intro to this site!

[jno]

ichkeria, French also has 'me' for the object: Il m'aime. So it's the same as English: one form for the subject, one for the object, and an emphatic form. In English the emphatic form is the same as the accusative form ('me'); French has two separate words. But that's the only difference.

For the queen (or anyone else), there's no grammatical dfference between saying 'My husband and I are the only people here' and 'The only people here are my husband and I.'

[ichkeria]

No, strictly "I" is like the French "je": it should only be used preceding the verb of which it's the subject.
This becomes more obvious by analogy with the other personal pronouns which have different accusative forms, as mentioned earlier.
Where French is different is that the "me" in French is used only in non-accusative cases. We use the same word "me" for the emphatic form also, whereas French as "moi". I know you know that, but that's what I meant.

[ichkeria]

"the "me" in French is used only in non-accusative cases"

Non-subject cases I meant (of course :-)

Anyway the original question has already been answered and the Oxford dictionary like quoted above by Ellipsis explains it well.

[jno]

I disagree, ichkeria. Here's a piece on the use of 'It is I'

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-linking-verbs.aspx

You would say it should be 'It is me' (as the French would say 'C'est moi') because it doesn't precede a verb; Grammar Girl and I would both say that's okay, normal and aceptable English, but 'It is I' is grammatically correct.

[ichkeria]

Far be it from me to argue with "Grammar Girl" :-)
The piece is based on the principle that "I", "he" etc. must always be used when they're the subject of the verb. But that rule, which I admit could be applied to the inverted example given earlier, does not hold for when the pronoun is in "stand-alone" mode. And "It is we" sounds so ridiculous that I cannot believe it is correct :-)
It is interesting why we tend to deprecate the use of "me" for I - (no one to my knowledge has ever queried "it is us" for example). It probably sounds less grand, somehow.

[jno]

well, I think that's the problem - it does sound hopelessly affected, and always has, possibly unless you're a duke. So right or wrong, it's seldom used, especially in spoken English.

But if a question like this one is asked about what is "correct", I think "it's I" is the answer.

In this case, though, it's "with Jenny and me".

[ichkeria]

But if people used it, which they don't in the case of "it is we" then it would sound normal :-)

[FredPuli43]

"It's me" is of such long standing that it must be regarded as correct when it stands alone: "Who's there? " "It's me" or "It's only me" rather than "It's I" or "It is only I" The last sounds wrong, in any event, as would "only we". It may be that we treat me/us as an emphatic form of the first person, and we use me/us rather than saying "It is but I" or "It is I , myself"

[Trishy]

Oh dear - now we're into transitive and intransitive verbs!!!

[Bert]

Many people cite Latin when this debate is in full flow. They point out that the verb 'to be' has the subject and predicate in the nominative case. Thus 'This man is a scoundrel' would have 'man' and 'scoundrel' in the nominative case. Based on this argument, 'It is I' would be grammatically correct, and it is only usage that makes it wrong. Opponents would point out that we don't speak Latin, and therefore we do not have to follow the rules of Latin grammar. However, suppose that you have a longer sentence: It was I who was speaking OR It was me who was speaking. I would submit that the first sentence is correct. Another example: It is I who am driving the car. This sounds so odd that it would be better to rephrase it. I have heard newsreaders (when there are two of them) sign off like this to avoid the problem: So, it's goodbye from John and from me, rather than the simpler form: So, it's goodbye from John and me.
I have yet to hear an American on TV say 'me' in the sort of situation that harry supplies. They always say "between you and I", which is wrong in my opinion. But, given that there are more of them than there are of us, and that usage decides what is right and what is wrong, who knows if in 50 years' time we won't all be saying "between you and I"?