2 & 8 or 6's & 7's

[david niven]

I guess that to be in a 2&8 is rhyming slang for 'state' but what about to be all 6's & 7's?

[geofbob]

This term meaning to be mixed up has nothing to do with rhyming slang but is very old and probably derives from a dice game. See http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-six1.htm

[david niven]

Many thanks geofbob, great site full of interesting stuff.

[sft42]

Sorry geofbob nothing to do with dice. This comes from the medieval guild of london whenthe merchant tailors and skinners couldn't decide who should be 6 and who 7. so they took it in turns which they still do to this day. Source-Bloomsbury reference

[david niven]

Thanks sft42, that sounds much more like it.

[geofbob]

Sorry, sft42, but I still go with the dice explanation. Why should some local tiff between two London guilds get into the national language? In any case, the term was originally used - eg by Chaucer in 1374 - to mean to hazard a lot on a little, so the connection with gambling was fairly clear. Only later did it evolve into today's meaning of carelessness and confusion.

[flirty41]

This question has been asked before, and Quizmonster gave a link. The dice theory seems to be favourite.

[flirty41]

Me again! It would help if I put the link in before hitting the submit button! It's http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-six1.htm

[david niven]

...this monkies gone to heaven. Thanks everyone for your input.