brass monkeys

[Lishy]

where did the saying come from " cold as brass monkeys "

[wildwood]

In the 'olden days' the ships had a brass plate called a monkey, with indentations so that cannon balls could be stacked on it in a pyramid fashion. When it froze hard enough the brass expanded at a different rate as the lead-alloy that the cannon balls were made from, thus causing the balls to tumble from the brass monkey.

Its true! Honest!

[andy-hughes]

I heard a slightly different version - the 'monkey' was a brass ring bolted to the deck, and the cannon balls were placed in a pyramid formation in the ring. If the weather was cold enough, the brass ring contracted sufficiently that the balls rolled off - 'cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey'.

[Quizmonster]

It's highly unlikely that it had anything whatever to do with cannon balls! For the view of the noted etymologist and lexicographer - ie true word-expert - Michael Quinion, click here

[andy-hughes]

Thanks QM - I feel even more superior now i can quote the gist of that answer, than i have for the last twenty years quoting the answer i gave here.

Respect sir - again!

[Quizmonster]

I didn't want you to think I was correcting you, personally, Andy. What you said is what 'everybody' seems to believe....in fact, I'm nearly certain I have myself given the answer you gave right here on AnswerBank in the past! Just another urban myth, it seems.
Why are so many of these somehow tied in to maritime things, I wonder? 'Posh' never has meant 'port out, starboard home'...'lean over backwards' has nothing to do with sailors furling sails and so on. Odd!

[andy-hughes]

That's quite OK QM - we both know each other better than to think some kind of 'point scoring' is going on! But thanks for your words anyway - appreciated.

At the risk of hi-jacking Lishy's thread - sorry Lishy - where do PSH and 'bending over backwards come from - again, I know the common perceptions, but would love to be the one to get it right!

[Quizmonster]

Andy...the 'port out, starboard home' explanation is nothing more than an urban legend. It supposedly referred to the journey by P & O ship between Britain and India in colonial/raj days. The very first time the word appeared in print, meaning 'grand/swell' was in 1918, having earlier appeared as 'push' - with a "u" - in a P G Wodehouse story in 1903.
As British officials and officers with wives and families had been sailing to and fro India for almost three centuries by then, it's clearly too late for the �port out' explanation to have any substance.
It was also rejected in the 'Mariners' Mirror' decades ago and presumably sailors of all people would have known.
Finally, the steamship company, P & O, themselves deny the phrase ever existed as a standard booking-demand! According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it is probably no more than a variant of Wodehouse's 'push'.

[Quizmonster]

Andy...'Lean over backwards' first appeared in print in 1925 and 'bend over backwards' in 1937, both in American publications. The earliest-recorded use of either in a British publication was in 'The Economist' magazine in November 1952. An article therein said: "Broadmindedness may be carried beyond the optimum of impartiality to that point of unfairness to one's own case which Americans call 'leaning over backward'."
It is plain from that quote what the phrase means exactly, where it came from exactly and how very recent an import it is.
There are some who claim the phrase came from sailors furling/unfurling sails on old ships, but that's obviously no more likely than that it came from rowing crews or tug-o'-war teams, who also have to �bend over backwards' to achieve their joint aims.
As the phrase appeared nowhere in print prior to well into the 20th century, that is surely very late - given Britain's long naval traditions and centuries of sea-tales before then - for any naval connection. How likely is it that a sailing-phrase would suddenly appear about a century after sailing-ships began their decline, having never been used in their heyday?

As Andy says, Lishy...my apologies, too, for hijacking your thread. I just hope my two replies might be of interest to you, as well! Cheers

[andy-hughes]

Fantastic - thanks as always QM, and thanks Lishy for the temporary use of your thread.

A.